11th armoured division battlegroups 1944

[trasno]

Hi all

I am looking for information on Battlegroups formed in 1944 by the 11th Armoured Division. I know that 4 battlegroups were formed for operation Bluecoat, but, which was their composition?

Many thanks.

Emilio Moskowich
Spain

[Andy H]

Hi all

I am looking for information on Battlegroups formed in 1944 by the 11th Armoured Division. I know that 4 battlegroups were formed for operation Bluecoat, but, which was their composition?

Many thanks.

Emilio Moskowich
Spain

Hi Emilio

This is from the book Operation Bluecoat by Ian Daglish, part of the Battleground Europe series.

He lists 3 Battlegroups
Nedforce
Steel
Nor-Mons
though from memory I believe there was Guards grouping of some sort, though not sure if it constituted a battlegroup as such.

The Nor-Mons consisted of 1/Royal Norfolks and 3/Monmouths which totalled some 550men all in. The ad-hoc force was under the command of Lt-Col Hubert Orr of the Monmouths. They were supported by the 25Pdrs of the Ayrshire Yeomanry from 2miles back and some Shermans from the 2/Fife & Forfarshire Yeomanry helped counter the PzKpw IV's of the 2/10 SS-Pz Regt that attacked the Nor-Mons position at Pavee.

Regards

Andy H

[JonS]

Norfolks were from 3 Div, Mons from 11 Armd Div

Daglish's book(s) are definitely your best bet. Another good choice would be Buckley's "British Armour in Normandy", but I'm not sure if he gives unit designations. IIRC, 11th Armd had three BGs, and a couple of floating regts. The Armd Recce Regt, for instance, operated mostly independently. Also, again IIRC, the BGs changed composition over the course of the battle.

[trasno]

Thanks for your answers. I read somewhere, sorry I don´t recall, that for Bluecoat the 11th armoured formed 4 battlegroups, one each from one infantry battallion, and one tank regiment. I would say that the armoured recce regiment teamed with the motor batallion.

The next very difficult questions is: any chance to know which RASC companies were asigned as transport to the infantry battallions in the 11th armoured?

Emilio Moskowich

[gjkennedy]

This is the 'group' organisation for Bluecoat, taken from 'Black Bull' by Patrick Delaforce -

23rd Hussars (Armd Regt); 3rd Monmouthshires (Inf Bn)

2nd Fife & Forfar Yeomany (Armd Regt); 4th Kings Shropshire Light Infanftry (Inf Bn)

1st Royal Tank Regiment (Armd Regt); 1st Herefordshires (Inf Bn)

2nd Northamptonshire Yeomanry (Armd Recce Regt); 8th Rifle Brigade (Motor Bn)

2nd Household Cavalry Regt (Armd Cars) was also with the Div to provide reconnaissance as the Armd Recce Regt was acting in the more convetional armoured role.

3rd Mons were in 11th Armd Div, part of 159 Bde until shortly before the end of the war.

Gary

[trasno]

Great, Gary!!

But there is an error. It is 3rd Royal Tank Regiment, not 1st Royal Tank Regiment.

Emilio

[gjkennedy]

Oops! Yes, my mistake, 3RTR it should be, my typo.

RASC transport for the Inf Bde would have come from the Armoured Divisional Troops Coy, which had two Platoons equipped with Troop Carrying Vehicles (TCVs). I don't know which RASC Coy provided 11th Armd Div with its Armd Div Tps Coy though, unless anyone else has got the reference?

Gary

[JonS]

RASC transport for the Inf Bde would have come from the Armoured Divisional Troops Coy, which had two Platoons equipped with Troop Carrying Vehicles (TCVs).

3-ton QLTs, to be specific. Basically the same as the 3-ton lorry, but with a longer deck. Each one could carry a full infantry platoon.

Only two RASC platoons for the Inf Bde though, that's odd. I though it took a lorry platoon to lift each infantry bn?

I don't know which RASC Coy provided 11th Armd Div with its Armd Div Tps Coy though, unless anyone else has got the reference?

I'm pretty sure I have that at home somewhere.

[JonS]

I don't know which RASC Coy provided 11th Armd Div with its Armd Div Tps Coy though, unless anyone else has got the reference?

I'm pretty sure I have that at home somewhere.

Hmm. The ref I have lists the RASC elements as
29th Armoured Brigade Company
159th Infantry Brigade Company
Divisional Transport Company

[JonS]

In terms of groupings, the 11th Armd Div Op Ord for BLUECOAT (dated 29 July) has the following:

159 Inf Bde Gp.
* Two two inf bns
* One armd regt
* RE det incl 4 AVsRE
* Three Crocodiles
* One tp 119 A Tk Bty
* 75 A Tk Regt (less two bts)
(and less two tps whd))
* Pro det
* 179 Fd Amb

29 Armd Bde Gp.
* Two armd regts
* 8 RB
* One inf bn
* 119 A Tk Bty (less one tp)
* RE det incl 4 AVsRE
* Three Crocodiles
* two tps (whd) 75 A Tk Regt
* 18 Lt Fd Amb
* Pro det

HQ RA
* 13 RHA
* 151 Fd Regt
* 25 Fd Regt
* 77 Med Regt (in sp)
* 117 A Tk Bty

RE
* 13 Fd Sqn
* 612 Fd Sqn
* 147 Fd Pk Sqn

Div Tps
* 2 N YEO
* 2 HCR (less one sqn)
* One Sqn LOTHIANS

The other sqn of 2 HCR was with 15 (S) Div, who also had another of the sqns from LOTHIANS, and the rest of the Crocodile sqn from 141 RAC. Names of the inf bns and armd regts in the two Bde Gps are not given.

[Kingfish]

* 77 Med Regt (in sp)

Just curious, what was this unit equipped with?

[gjkennedy]

There is a bit of a disconnect between the number of RASC Pls with TCVs, and the number of Inf Bns in a Bde.

The WE for the HQ of a Commander, RASC, shows an Armd Div Tps Coy with two Pls of 3-tonners and two Pls of TCVs for the "Transport for the carriage of second line scales of ammunition, petrol and anti-gas reserves, and of supplies on single echelon on unit basis for units of armoured divisional troops, and transport for the carriage of marching personnel of three infantry battalions of the infantry brigade". That's the same for the Feb 1943 and April 1945 WEs. A non-Div Troop Carry Coy also had two TCV Pls and was rated to carry the marching troops of a full Inf Bde.

Now I don't pretend to be a petrolhead, but I understand the TCV could accomodate 30 men? With thirty such vehicles per RASC Pl and two TCV Pls you have then the capacity to lift 1800 men. That's more than the strength of the Rifle Coys and Bn HQ details from three Inf Bns, so easily enough space for bums on seats. These weren't Motor Bns, so tactical transport wasn't a requirement (carrying Pls and Secs whole so they could deploy as formed elements). That does imply they would have to break the two RASC Pls into three subunits, which seems awkward. If they were to stick to one Pl per Bn though, they would have a lot of empty spaces, and they couldn't afford to be that wasteful.

A much earlier WE suggest that when normal 3-tonners were used in lieu of TCVs, more vehicles were required. The July 1941 HQ CRASC shows a Gen Tpt Coy with three Pls of 3-tonners, or alternatively with two Pls of '30-seater, 3-ton lorries', both stated as "capable of lifting the marching personnel of one infantry brigade". Both Pl types had thirty task vehicles, which became the standard RASC subunit at this date.

I've got 29 and 159 Coys as two of the RASC units for 11th Armd Div, for those particular Bdes. It's from Jean Bouchery's The British Soldier, Vol 2. I looked at it last night, but to be honest I'm not sure those numbers are correct. He doesn't give a number for Div Tps Coy, and I don't recall RASC Coys being numbered in sync with the Bde they were serving. He gives numbers for 7th and Guards Armd Div (and all the Inf Divs), but I wonder if they couldn't confirm the details for 11th Armd Div? Just a thought.

Gary

PS - I don't claim to be as steeped in Corps Troops as I am low level units, but I believe 77th Med Regt would have been equipped with either 4.5-inch or 5.5-inch guns. Bouchery puts them in 8 AGRA (I don't know if they switched to another AGRA during the campaign).

[Andy H]

Hi Gary

Ref 77th Med Regt

77 Med Regt TA
Fm DLOY 2/40
UK 1940-4 - Northern Ireland Comd
NW Europe 1944-5 - 8 AGRA & 11 Armd Div

http://nigelef.tripod.com/regtsumm.htm#8 AGRA

Regards

Andy H

[Andy H]

Hi Gary

Ref 77th Med Regt

77 Med Regt TA
Fm DLOY 2/40
UK 1940-4 - Northern Ireland Comd
NW Europe 1944-5 - 8 AGRA & 11 Armd Div

http://nigelef.tripod.com/regtsumm.htm#8 AGRA

Regards

Andy H

[Tom from Cornwall]

JonS, wrote:

gjkennedy wrote:
RASC transport for the Inf Bde would have come from the Armoured Divisional Troops Coy, which had two Platoons equipped with Troop Carrying Vehicles (TCVs).
3-ton QLTs, to be specific. Basically the same as the 3-ton lorry, but with a longer deck. Each one could carry a full infantry platoon.

Does that mean that all Inf Bde or Armd Bde RASC Coys were equipped with Bedford QLTs? If so, that would be great news for someone looking for Austin 3-tonners, a whole load of RASC war diaries that I don't have to look through.

Regards

Tom