British Army at home September 1940

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Knouterer
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Re: British Army at home September 1940

#1216

Post by Knouterer » 09 Dec 2014, 10:43

phylo_roadking wrote: [ You've refused to post up the detailed list of targets for the railway guns as of September 1940 which you have at your disposal, so there's no point in posting up more and more "thin" references. That's "aimless"...apart from adding even more uncertainty and inaccuracy into the thread.
I certainly refuse to be ordered around and told what I should or should not post up, least of all by someone who keeps messing up this thread while contributing nothing, or next to nothing, of any value. If I want to give a summary, for easier consultation and comparison, that's my decision. If you don't like or trust my summaries, you're PERFECTLY free to go and consult the original at Kew, or order copies.

If you have any special requests you want me to consider, you'll have to adopt an ENTIRELY different tone.

For my part, I have repeatedly requested you to STOP quoting everything I write - sometimes three times over - interspersed with your own comments, which in 98% of cases contain no new information or insights whatsoever.

For example, if I post some source material from which it clearly appears that the gunners of certain batteries were not well trained at a certain point in time, it is QUITE unnecessary for you to keep insisting, in this near-hysterical fashion, that they were NOT!!! well!!! trained!!!

Readers of this thread - those that have not yet been driven away in disgust, that is - are intelligent enough to reach such conclusions for themselves without your "help".
Last edited by Knouterer on 09 Dec 2014, 14:46, edited 1 time in total.
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Re: British Army at home September 1940

#1217

Post by Knouterer » 09 Dec 2014, 11:59

As an amusing sidelight re the railway guns, a history of Elham (north of Lyminge) in 1940 ("A Harvest of Messerschmitts" by Dennis Knight) mentions that whenever the commander of the 7th SH battery based there from mid-November, one Major Basset, appeared in the Rose & Crown, as he frequently did, owners of nice houses near the railway hastened to offer him a drink, hoping that it would keep him from conducting any practice shoots too near their homes. Which as they knew would strip roof tiles, break windows and crack ceilings.
According to the story, when drinks were not forthcoming quickly enough the good major ( I hope none of his relatives is reading this ...) was not above giving delicate little hints that he just might be planning something of the kind.
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Re: British Army at home September 1940

#1218

Post by Knouterer » 09 Dec 2014, 14:48

By the way, the abovementioned work, Harvest of Messerschmitts, was written with input from several aviation buffs/historians and contains a lot of interesting information about what was happening at RAF Hawkinge nearby and to a lesser degree at RAF Lympne also. Concerning local defences, it says that two 20 mm Hispano guns were installed at Hawkinge on 13 June, and two more on the 18th of that month, which tallies with what we know already.
Regarding Lympne, on the evening of Aug. 12 attack : "Most of the personnel dived for cover and gun crews (meaning presumably the RAF machine gunners) were taken by surprise, leaving only the two Hispanos to spray their small shells at the raiders.“
Assuming the abovementioned recommendation of the Inspector-General to install four more was heeded, that would have brought the total up to six by September, which seems a bit above average.
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Re: British Army at home September 1940

#1219

Post by phylo_roadking » 09 Dec 2014, 17:18

For example, if I post some source material from which it clearly appears that the gunners of certain batteries were not well trained at a certain point in time, it is QUITE unnecessary for you to keep insisting, in this near-hysterical fashion, that they were NOT!!! well!!! trained!!!
It is however worth pointing out what you failed to do - that if they were NOT!!! well!!! trained!!! a month outside the timeframe of this thread....they would have been worse a month earlier, inside the timeframe of this thread.

Regarding Lympne, on the evening of Aug. 12 attack : "Most of the personnel dived for cover and gun crews (meaning presumably the RAF machine gunners) were taken by surprise, leaving only the two Hispanos to spray their small shells at the raiders.“
Assuming the abovementioned recommendation of the Inspector-General to install four more was heeded, that would have brought the total up to six by September, which seems a bit above average.
That's an assumption that you cannot make unless you know the total RAF AA defence as of August 12th....and whether it was at that point in time below average.

In regard to the Hispano cannons themselves - I take it you still haven't read Kingsley Oliver? Lewis/Vickers MGS were what they had, cannon were preferred. But Bofors weren't available to the RAF...so they used what they had access to - the Hispanos. Why - with Hispanos in single-mount ground mounts coming off the production line for RAF ground gunners' use, would he suggest anything other than cannon?

Regarding Lympne, on the evening of Aug. 12 attack : "Most of the personnel dived for cover and gun crews (meaning presumably the RAF machine gunners) were taken by surprise, leaving only the two Hispanos to spray their small shells at the raiders.“
You're forgetting the Army AA at RAF Lympne.

I certainly refuse to be ordered around and told what I should or should not post up, least of all by someone who keeps messing up this thread while contributing nothing, or next to nothing, of any value. If I want to give a summary, for easier consultation and comparison, that's my decision. If you don't like or trust my summaries, you're PERFECTLY free to go and consult the original at Kew, or order copies.
If you have relevant specifically-detailed material, make us aware of it but refuse to post it up - it leaves suspect any interpretations or assumptions made by you based on lesser material. As in - "is he choosing not to post it up because it might actually contradict what he's saying?"

It may make for "easier" consultation and comparison" for you, but this is a history forum, and this is one of the research sections of that forum. Accuracy is greatly preferred here to "easy".

For my part, I have repeatedly requested you to STOP quoting everything I write - sometimes three times over - interspersed with your own comments, which in 98% of cases contain no new information or insights whatsoever.
If they require or deserve comment - they'll get comment. Don't ever think otherwise.

Readers of this thread - those that have not yet been driven away in disgust, that is - are intelligent enough to reach such conclusions for themselves without your "help".
Well - you missed the implications of the date(s) of the calibration exercises being outside the time frame of the thread, or the implications for accuracy before that - especially when firing on invasion beaches etc. alongside defenders...and the implication that if the gunners were bad in October they couldn't help but be worse in September.
Last edited by phylo_roadking on 09 Dec 2014, 18:07, edited 2 times in total.
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Re: British Army at home September 1940

#1220

Post by phylo_roadking » 09 Dec 2014, 17:29

gambadier wrote:Nicholson's 'Gunners of Canada' Vol 2, Pg 78/9 refers to men in No 1 Canadian Artillery Holding Unit who had previous experience in medium, heavy or coast arty forming X and Y Super-Heavy Batteries under Majs WERM Stone and WC Thackray respectively.
Gambadier - yes indeed; as I showed several pages ago now. the issue is the speed with which this was done; I've provided two references confirming that the holding unit(s) in the UK were only canvassed/a memo circulated for volunteers with experience in the first week of the month, at the beginning of September...as opposed to -
Re: the Canadians, it appears that X and Y batteries, while undoubtedly in existence, were not yet Canadian-manned, or only partially. According to a history of the Canadian artillery, volunteers from various (artillery) units in Britain were selected at the beginning of Sept, but training was it seems still ongoing at the end of that month; the WD of the 4th SH bty (WO 166/1904) notes for 12.9: “Two Canadian batteries now being formed undergoing training with the unit”.
...as their actual selection after this memo was circulated, a week or two further into September towards the middle of the month has of course implications for how advanced their training was by the end of the month.
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Re: British Army at home September 1940

#1221

Post by Knouterer » 09 Dec 2014, 20:35

phylo_roadking wrote:
For my part, I have repeatedly requested you to STOP quoting everything I write - sometimes three times over - interspersed with your own comments, which in 98% of cases contain no new information or insights whatsoever.
If they require or deserve comment - they'll get comment. Don't ever think otherwise.
.
Perhaps you could find some other thread on AHF that is equally deserving of your comments and haunt that for a while? I'm sure readers of this thread would be deeply grateful.
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Re: British Army at home September 1940

#1222

Post by phylo_roadking » 09 Dec 2014, 22:25

You know it doesn't work like that here.
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Re: British Army at home September 1940

#1223

Post by Knouterer » 09 Dec 2014, 23:50

The subject of the AA guns in East Kent, and what was were at the end of September, is about as intractable as that of the emergency coastal batteries, but with the aid of various WDs (223 HAA battery WO166/2506, 28th AA Brigade WO 166/2248) and other publications, especially “A Fury of Guns” by Peter Erwood (History of the 75th “Cinque Ports” HAA Regiment in 1939-1940), I believe I have more or less pinned it down now. Corrections welcome of course.

We have already seen the map from Dobinson’s “AA Command” with HAA and LAA sites, and searchlights, which I repost pour mémoire, but “A Fury of Guns” has one that is more helpful in this regard.

During the summer and autumn of 1940, personnel moved around a lot and men from different batteries, and even from different regiments, might be manning guns on the same site. Apart from the Army, A Battery of the Royal Marine AA Regt occupied sites D11, D12, D14 and D16 from April to December 1940.

To keep it simple, I am listing only the guns on different sites, disregarding personnel movements.

D1 Farthingloe (Dover): 4x3.7in mobiles installed Sept. 1939, 4 more in May? replaced by 4x3.7in statics June 13.

D2 Swingate (Dover): 8x3.7in mobiles installed Aug.-Sept. 1939. Two moved to Isle of Wight Dec. 1939, returned March 1940. Four others taken away? Only 4 on 31.3.1940, replaced by 4x3.7in statics June 14.

D3 Frith Farm (Dover): Sept. 1939 2x3in, moved to Dover seafront Dec. 1939, 4x3.7in installed May 1940.

D4 Buckland (also called St.Radigund’s) (Dover): 4x3.7in mobiles (from D1) installed June 1940. Site closed Aug 25, guns sent to protect aircraft factory at Farnborough.

D5 Dover harbour: 2x3in (battery built during WW1 and also used in WW2)

D6 Hawkshill Down (Walmer) 2x3.7in moved to D1 in May. Site unoccupied Sept.

D7 Sandown Castle (Deal) 2x3.7in moved to D1 in May. Site unoccupied Sept.

D8 Chalkhole Farm (Margate.): 2x3in installed May 1940

D9 Ozengell Grange (Ramsgate): 2x3in installed May 1940

D10 Cleve Court (Manston): 4x3in ordered deployed there on 21.5.1940

D11 Hope Farm (Capel): 4x3.7in installed May 1940, removed again in June. Royal Marine AA Regt took over 4x3in, two of which were sent to D16 – 2x3in Sept.

D12 Ridge Row (Densole): 3x3in installed May 1940. RM AA Regt, 2x3in

D13 Copt Point (Folkestone) 4x3in (from D11) May 1940, in two sections. Returned to D11 June. Site unoccupied Sept.

D14 Coolinge Lane (Folkestone): 4x3.7in installed May 1940, removed again in June. RM AA Regt, 2x3in.

D15 Pedlinge Court (Hythe): 2x3in installed May to protect RAF Lympne, removed June 9 to T&W (Thames and Medway) site S25. Site unoccupied Sept.

D16 Arpinge Farm (west of Hawkinge). RM AA Regt, 2x3in.
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Re: British Army at home September 1940

#1224

Post by phylo_roadking » 10 Dec 2014, 00:19

The list of targets is a bit long, so I will permit myself to summarize as follows
I certainly refuse to be ordered around and told what I should or should not post up, least of all by someone who keeps messing up this thread while contributing nothing, or next to nothing, of any value. If I want to give a summary, for easier consultation and comparison, that's my decision.
If you have relevant specifically-detailed material, make us aware of it but refuse to post it up - it leaves suspect any interpretations or assumptions made by you based on lesser material. As in - "is he choosing not to post it up because it might actually contradict what he's saying?"

It may make for "easier" consultation and comparison" for you, but this is a history forum, and this is one of the research sections of that forum. Accuracy is greatly preferred here to "easy".
And thus...
During the summer and autumn of 1940, personnel moved around a lot and men from different batteries, and even from different regiments, might be manning guns on the same site. Apart from the Army, A Battery of the Royal Marine AA Regt occupied sites D11, D12, D14 and D16 from April to December 1940.

To keep it simple, I am listing only the guns on different sites, disregarding personnel movements.

D1 Farthingloe (Dover): 4x3.7in mobiles installed Sept. 1939, 4 more in May? replaced by 4x3.7in statics June 13.

D2 Swingate (Dover): 8x3.7in mobiles installed Aug.-Sept. 1939. Two moved to Isle of Wight Dec. 1939, returned March 1940. Four others taken away? Only 4 on 31.3.1940, replaced by 4x3.7in statics June 14.

D3 Frith Farm (Dover): Sept. 1939 2x3in, moved to Dover seafront Dec. 1939, 4x3.7in installed May 1940.

D4 Buckland (also called St.Radigund’s) (Dover): 4x3.7in mobiles (from D1) installed June 1940. Site closed Aug 25, guns sent to protect aircraft factory at Farnborough.

D5 Dover harbour: 2x3in (battery built during WW1 and also used in WW2)

D6 Hawkshill Down (Walmer) 2x3.7in moved to D1 in May. Site unoccupied Sept.

D7 Sandown Castle (Deal) 2x3.7in moved to D1 in May. Site unoccupied Sept.

D8 Chalkhole Farm (Margate.): 2x3in installed May 1940

D9 Ozengell Grange (Ramsgate): 2x3in installed May 1940

D10 Cleve Court (Manston): 4x3in ordered deployed there on 21.5.1940

D11 Hope Farm (Capel): 4x3.7in installed May 1940, removed again in June. Royal Marine AA Regt took over 4x3in, two of which were sent to D16 – 2x3in Sept.

D12 Ridge Row (Densole): 3x3in installed May 1940. RM AA Regt, 2x3in

D13 Copt Point (Folkestone) 4x3in (from D11) May 1940, in two sections. Returned to D11 June. Site unoccupied Sept.

D14 Coolinge Lane (Folkestone): 4x3.7in installed May 1940, removed again in June. RM AA Regt, 2x3in.

D15 Pedlinge Court (Hythe): 2x3in installed May to protect RAF Lympne, removed June 9 to T&W (Thames and Medway) site S25. Site unoccupied Sept.

D16 Arpinge Farm (west of Hawkinge). RM AA Regt, 2x3in.
...having posted up a list THAT long, that needed to be culled from "...various WDs (223 HAA battery WO166/2506, 28th AA Brigade WO 166/2248) and other publications, especially “A Fury of Guns” by Peter Erwood (History of the 75th “Cinque Ports” HAA Regiment in 1939-1940)..."...I'm sure you'll understand that your refusal to post up the list of targets for the railway guns available from just one (1) appendix to a file creates not a little interest in OTHER possible reasons for your refusal two pages back...
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Re: British Army at home September 1940

#1225

Post by phylo_roadking » 10 Dec 2014, 00:25

In the meantime...

...is there any point in noting that the HAA postion shown on the second map ("Fig.18") as being immediately south of RAF Lympne - doesn't seem to appear anywhere on that nice long list?

...or if it is indeed "D15 Pedlinge Court (Hythe)"....Fig.18 shows it as being there when your file material says it was not -
D15 Pedlinge Court (Hythe): 2x3in installed May to protect RAF Lympne, removed June 9 to T&W (Thames and Medway) site S25. Site unoccupied Sept.

...but Pedlinge (the hamlet) is actually directly to east of RAF Lympne, so by definition can't be the position illustrated in Fig.18 - which is directly south of RAF Lympne.

EDIT: a little googling reveals that "Pedlinge Court" is indeed a listed building in that area of Pedlinge - a rural area in Saltwood, a suburb of Hythe - and so cannot be the HAA position shown in Fig.18 to be immediately south of RAF Lympne.

So which is wrong? Your list for not listing it....or the "Fig18" map for showing it....or both?
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Re: British Army at home September 1940

#1226

Post by Andy H » 10 Dec 2014, 00:39

Well the easy option and frankly given the attitude displayed by both sides at times, the only option is to lock the thread.

Your as bad & as good as each other. Your each others Ying or Yang.

The thread contains pages of interesting (often primary) stuff, yet much of it is surrounded by crap, obfuscation and at times childish behaviour, which neither of you is immune from-and you both know it.
Playing the devils advocate can be a useful exercise is testing the gravitas of a persons argument, but its constant playing, just grates and derails the thread.

Sadly but frankly I don't care if this thread isn't ever re-opened, but it won't be till the New Year at the earliest.

Regards

Andy H

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