A24 Cavaliers - where are they?

[Don Juan]

According to popular lore, the Cruiser Tank Mk.VII Cavalier had its first six pilot models built in 1942, and after defects noted in trials on the first pilot, production was "cut back" to 500 tanks, of which 320 were produced as Observation Post tanks, some of which may have been used in North West Europe. Produced during 1943, the majority of the Cavaliers were said to have been only used for training.

Now 500 tanks is not an insubstantial number. So where are they?

I have only seen a small number of photographs of Cavaliers, none of which indicate they are being used in any kind of training exercise or active service. They are all single examples that appear to be posed during evaluation. To whit:

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Apart from these photos, checking the HMVF site, there appear to be a handful of wrecks on, or from, firing ranges - two at Otterburn, one at the Isle Of Wight (which could be one of the ones from Otterburn), and an example at Bovington, which came from the Larkhill Range.

Also, the IWM website lists only one record of the Cavalier in its entire database - a wading trial in which a single Cavalier is unloaded from an LCT: http://www.iwm.org.uk/collections/item/ ... 1060020355

In his Osprey book on the Cromwell, David Fletcher includes a photo of the Cavalier ARV, one example of which was produced before the project was scrapped.

Other than this, Wikipedia makes an unreferenced claim that "at least 12 Cavaliers were provided to France in 1945, and were operated by the 12th Dragoon Regiment of the French 14th Infantry Division."

The following photo may be one of these French Cavaliers, but again it is a posed shot with no context:

It appears that there is very little evidence that the Cavalier experienced any kind of service use, even in second line duties, during its "career". So what happened to the 500 that were built? Were they scrapped immediately? Or put straight into storage and scrapped quietly after the war? Or did they go straight onto the firing ranges? Or is there a pile of Cavaliers somewhere under the sea off the British coast?

Or were they even built in the first place?

[Don Juan]

OK, I've done a bit of digging, and of the photos I posted above, according to the IWM site, the top picture, and the picture of the tank being washed, are in fact Centaurs. The serial number of the tank being washed accords with a Centaur serial number, and the IWM blurb states "Centaur tank being washed prior to servicing at No. 8 AFV depot at Leicester, 25 April 1944."

The very bottom picture, according to JKW Bingham's 1967 "Armour In Profile Cromwell Mk.4" is one of the six pilot models of the A24. However, Fletcher's Osprey book on the Cromwell only gives three serial numbers for A24 pilots.

Also, as regards range wrecks there appear to be only three in existence - the two from Otterburn, and the one from Larkhill. One of the turrets from the Otterburn wreck now crowns a Centaur CS in France.

However, I have found a photo of production Cavaliers, replete with pissed off man in foreground. It is from Ian Carter's "Cromwell & Centaur":

These Cavaliers are from 65th (Highland) Medium Regiment, Royal Artillery, and are apparently being de-kitted for storage at No.8 AFV Depot in April 1944. Fletcher has a photo of the same location in his Osprey book, but he claims the Cavaliers are being kitted out for the same regiment. If they are being de-kitted (which I suspect is correct) then they have been washed beforehand, no doubt by the same chaps who are washing the Centaur.

The serial numbers accord with Cavalier serial numbers, which should be in the range T129620-130119. Here is the plate from one of the Otterburn wrecks:

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It would appear that whatever Cavaliers were built saw very little service, from the (lack of) evidence we have. I suspect the majority went straight into storage, and were only removed to be scrapped or shot at.

[Don Juan]

Here's a picture of the back end of a Cavalier - its "Crusader" style rear vents are the key recognition feature. From the front you need to rely on the serial number.

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This is obviously taken at the same service depot as the picture above.

So the only visual evidence that the Cavalier undertook any kind of service with the British Army is a few photos of a handful of A24's being prepared for storage in April 1944. Other than that we have 3 range wrecks, and some film of a Cavalier taking part in wading trials.

Otherwise, I have not even seen evidence that service instruction books or training pamphlets were issued for this vehicle. It certainly isn't included in the Centaur or joint Cromwell/Centaur instruction books. Nor do there appear to be the usual posed profile shots that accompany a new tank into service.

[phylo_roadking]

The following photo may be one of these French Cavaliers, but again it is a posed shot with no context:

Chamberlain & Ellis use this pic on their page on the Cavalier, and refer to it as one of the pilot vehicles!

Now 500 tanks is not an insubstantial number. So where are they?

I have only seen a small number of photographs of Cavaliers, none of which indicate they are being used in any kind of training exercise or active service.

C&E also refer specifically to them being used as training for gun tanks...possibly due to their similarlity to the upcoming Cromwell??

They also mention "a few" were converted to ARVs.

However, Fletcher's Osprey book on the Cromwell only gives three serial numbers for A24 pilots.

This is not necessarily an indicator of anything; Bovington may simply only have had three serial numbers on their surviving records of the type...! Or only three may have been issued - did, for instance, the many and various mild steel prototypes of British tanks get T-numbers?

[Don Juan]

This is another early Cavalier:

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What gives it away is the distinctive rivet pattern on the front turret plate. The few pictures that show this pattern name the tank as a Cavalier. There is no indication that any of them are service vehicles.

Is there any possibility that not all the alleged 500 were produced? Or that some were built as Centaurs?

[phylo_roadking]

Is there any possibility that not all the alleged 500 were produced? Or that some were built as Centaurs?

Well, the A27L was to have all external dimensions the same as the Cavalier...but to becertain enough to say the latter above you'd need to know more about the production history of both types - T-number ranges issued to batches and whether any were either re-numbered or the batches then re-allocated to the the A27L, for example

It's possible that some were re-allocated to Centaur production while still just piles of cut parts But for THIS you'd also need to know production dates of batches of both types

You KNOW where I'm going to tell you to go for all that, don't you...

[Don Juan]

Well, if I'm going to go all the way over to Bovington, I might as well spend a week there, so it's best to thrash out the issues here first so I know exactly what to research.

At the end of the day, production of the A24 seemed to have had the primary purpose of keeping Lord Nuffield happy, so I wonder if they worked out a ruse where he got paid, and the Cavaliers got built "on paper" but perhaps not in actuality.

It does seem to be the most rarely photographed British tank. There are more pictures of things like the TOG, Black Prince, Alecto etc.

[phylo_roadking]

so I wonder if they worked out a ruse where he got paid, and the Cavaliers got built "on paper" but perhaps not in actuality.

No chance of that....going unnoticed It wasn't JUST a question of the money - but also the apportioned labour production line space, raw materials allocated from the MoS...guns etc. from third parties...FAR too many elements to hide them all in the accounting Someone somewhere would blow a whistle.

It does seem to be the most rarely photographed British tank. There are more pictures of things like the TOG, Black Prince, Alecto etc.

Don't confuse only a few pics being published, or a few being scanned...with there being only a few period

[Don Juan]

Well, it's not just pictures - there don't seem to be any IWM sound archives of veterans' reminiscences of the tank. Nor does there seem to be any of the usual official documentation - handbooks, training pamphlets etc.

It's an information void.

I think the most likely explanation is that most of these tanks went straight into storage until they were scrapped. The Cavalier didn't go into service in any meaningful way - not even to the limited extent that the Covenanter and Centaur did.

[phylo_roadking]

there don't seem to be any IWM sound archives of veterans' reminiscences of the tank. Nor does there seem to be any of the usual official documentation - handbooks, training pamphlets etc

Again, you're arguing from the POV that because you can't find it it mustn't have existed Remember "absence of evidence is not evidence of absence" - remember how few there were, how many training units would have got them and the associated manuals etc.?

I think the most likely explanation is that most of these tanks went straight into storage until they were scrapped.

Daivd Boyd's article on the Cavalier is more than brief...http://www.wwiiequipment.com/index.php? ... &Itemid=56 ...but look at the very bottom - 160 built in 1943...when production of Cromwell was also beginning. I doubt that at THIS point - with Covenanter being phased out - there was any slack in the demand for training tanks..remember -

Now 500 tanks is not an insubstantial number

Seeing as half (at least) of those became OP tanks - yes it was Over 1,700 Covenanters...vs. less than 250 Cavaliers in the training role

[Don Juan]

I'd be amazed if that 166 chalked as produced in 1944 were actually made in that year, when there was a chronic shortfall of Cromwells.

Fletcher has Cavalier production ending in September 1943.

Weird.

[phylo_roadking]

I'd be amazed if that 166 chalked as produced in 1944 were actually made in that year, when there was a chronic shortfall of Cromwells

Well, that would depend on whether the steel etc. allocated for them was delivered in 1943...or 1944 If the former, then unless someone actually halted the contract (see the truncated batches in Covenanter production...) they'd be built. But only the contract/build cards would confirm this if they survive. And they'll be at...

[Sheldrake]

The short answer is that they were designed, manufactured and scrapped with minimal service use. The title of the 1st volume of the HMSO publication on British tank design was entitled "the Great tank Scandal." The development of unsatisfactory tanks such as the Centaur is on a par with the German development of the Me210 and He177.

Some of the Centaurs were converted to Cromwell standard by replacing the Liberty engine with the Meteor. I am not sure if this was done with the Nuffield built "Cavaliers" AKA "Cromwell I" .

The Gunners put up with them as better than Bren Carriers as OP vehicles, but I am not aware that they deployed to NW Europe or Italy with this vehicle. Eight tanks were added to armoured and tank brigades to be used by Gunners. I assume that in NW Europe these would have been the standard gun tank for the Brigade, even if only for maintenance simplicity, as well as the unreliability of the Liberty engine. I am not aware of the Cavalier being used in NW Europe, maybe someone else will know better.

The RMASG used the CS variants of the Centaur for the D Day support role. The serviceability of these vehicles was abysmal when they had to move.

This website shows Cromwell OPs http://niehorster.orbat.com/017_britain ... _21AG.html We know from the photos of Villers Bocage that at least BC K Battery was mounted in a Sherman OP and from the 3 HA war diary that FOOs in 3RHA used Cromwells.

[Don Juan]

Sheldrake - do you have any specific information about Cavalier OP's being used in the UK?

The only unit I've identified as having them is the 65th (Highland) Medium Regt. RA.

[Sheldrake]

Sheldrake - do you have any specific information about Cavalier OP's being used in the UK?

The only unit I've identified as having them is the 65th (Highland) Medium Regt. RA.

Don Juan,

It might have been me - had I been a Troop Commander/FOO in N Battery "The Eagle Troop" in 1944 rather than 1984!

http://the.shadock.free.fr/Surviving_Cruiser_Tanks.pdf has images of surviving cruiser tanks. The picture on page 18 of this document is captioned "Cavalier (A24) wreck – Bovington Tank Museum (UK) This tank was found on Larkhill artillery ranges back in 1985. It was a Gunner's Observation Post (OP) tank in the 9th Armoured Division during its short service life (info. from the museum)"

The gunner units of the 9th "Panda" Division were 6 RHA and 141st (Queen's Own Dorset Yeomanry) Field Regiment, RA. The A24s were on the establishment of the Armoured Brigades with RAC drivers.