A24 Cavaliers - where are they?

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Don Juan
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Re: A24 Cavaliers - where are they?

#16

Post by Don Juan » 22 Oct 2013, 11:45

Thanks very much Sheldrake. 9th AD would make a lot of sense because that was the Division that the first Centaurs and Cromwells (but mostly the former) served in, from April 1943. The only other unit I can find that used Centaurs is 2nd Northants Yeomanry, 11th AD, but even Centaurs must have been thin on the ground because they had to make up their troop numbers with M3 Stuarts!

65th (Highland) Medium Regiment weren't attached to any armoured division, so it appears the RA had a use for OP vehicles regardless of whether they were working within RAC units or not.

There appear to have been somewhere in the region of 100 RA regiments in the UK at this time, with 70-80 being field, medium or heavy, so I suppose there were plenty of potential users for the A24. Finding them will not be an easy job, I fear.
"The demonstration, as a demonstration, was a failure. The sunshield would not fit the tank. Altogether it was rather typically Middle Easty."
- 7th Armoured Brigade War Diary, 30th August 1941

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Re: A24 Cavaliers - where are they?

#17

Post by Sheldrake » 22 Oct 2013, 12:58

Don Juan wrote:65th (Highland) Medium Regiment weren't attached to any armoured division, so it appears the RA had a use for OP vehicles regardless of whether they were working within RAC units or not.

There appear to have been somewhere in the region of 100 RA regiments in the UK at this time, with 70-80 being field, medium or heavy, so I suppose there were plenty of potential users for the A24. Finding them will not be an easy job, I fear.
My previous statements were wrong and written in a moment of mental aberration. The 1944 establishments for field and medium regiments did include OP Tanks.
http://nigelef.tripod.com/medregt44.htm three tanks per regiment
http://nigelef.tripod.com/fdregt44.htm three tanks per regiment (nine in an armoured division)
http://nigelef.tripod.com/fdregtsp44.htm fourteen tanks per regiment

(I really knew this, as an officer from the 68th Hertfordshire Yeomanry an SP Fd unit was killed bringing forwards a spare OP tank)
Perhaps the 8 Op tanks per armoured brigade refer to tanks for gunners who don't have tanks of their own.

I'll keep my eyes open when digging around the gunner stuff.

Using armoured OP tanks was a novelty in 1943 and lots of people gunners played with tanks.

Some may have been attached for training purposes to medium and field regiments unaffiliated to armoured divisions

I suspect that it


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Re: A24 Cavaliers - where are they?

#18

Post by Don Juan » 22 Oct 2013, 20:11

Thanks again Sheldrake - that's excellent information.

Summarising from the same site: http://nigelef.tripod.com/regtsumm.htm#abbr

I have these field/medium/heavy artillery regiments present in the UK from Jan-43 to D-Day (at latest):
3 AGRA
----------
6 Fd Regt
59 (4th West Lancs) Med Regt
67 (Suffolk) Med Regt
72 Med Regt


4 AGRA
---------
53 (London) Med Regt
65 (Highland) Med Regt
68 (W Lancs) Med Regt
79 Med Regt


8 AGRA
---------
61 (Carnavon & Denbigh Yeo) Med Regt
63 (Midland) Med Regt


9 AGRA
---------
9 Med Regt
10 Med Regt
11 Med Regt
13 Med Regt
15 Med Regt
16 Med Regt
71 Med Regt
77 Med Regt
168 Med Regt
1 Hy Regt
51 (Lowland) Hy Regt
52 (Bedfordshire Yeo) Hy Regt
53 Hy Regt
55 Hy Regt
60 Hy Regt


9 ARMOURED DIV.
----------------------
6 RHA
141 (QO Dorset Yeo) Fd Regt


11 ARMOURED DIV.
-----------------------
13 HAC RHA
151 Fd Regt


GUARDS ARMOURED DIV.
------------------------------
153 Fd Regt


MISC.
-------
5 Fd Regt
7 Fd Regt
33 Fd Regt
55 (Wessex) Fd Regt
61 (North Midland) Fd Regt
69 (West Riding) Fd Regt
74 (Northumbrian) Fd Regt
76 (Highland) Fd Regt
79 (Lowland) Fd Regt
80 (Lowland) Fd Regt
81 (Welsh) Fd Regt
83 (Welsh) Fd Regt
86 (Herts Yeo) Fd Regt
94 (QO Dorset Yeo) Fd Regt
96 (R Devon Yeo) Fd Regt
109 Fd Regt
112 (Wessex) Fd Regt
116 (N Midland) Fd Regt
117 (London) Fd Regt
119 (S Midland) Fd Regt
120 (S Midland) Fd Regt
126 (Highland) Fd Regt
127 (Highland) Fd Regt
128 (Highland) Fd Regt
131 (Lowland) Fd Regt
133 (Welsh) Fd Regt
145 (Berks Yeo) Fd Regt
Now I should say that this isn't a definitive list because a) it was compiled by an amateur (myself) who is no expert on how RA units were organised, and b) I've left out Super Heavy, LAA, ATk. regiments who, as having non-mobile guns, or being involved in direct fire roles, would have had less need for an OP tank, and c) I may have made errors anyway.

I should also point out that the units I qualified as "misc." aren't really miscellaneous - they're just not a part of the army groups or armoured units I'm concentrating upon.

This list is obviously so large that it will take a long period of research to quantify exactly what vehicles each unit used, so my intention as regards the A24 is to try and get hold of TO & E's for the armoured divisions that I feel were most likely to have used it (9th, 11th, Guards) and also the war diary of 65th Medium Regiment RA for 1943-44 so as to ascertain whether they used the Cavalier as a standard part of their equipment, or merely adopted it for exercises.

From this I would hope to ascetain firstly whether the RAC ever used the A24 Cavalier as a gun tank, even for training (very unlikely, I think) and give some direction to others who would like to investigate the RA's use of OP tanks both prior to D-Day, and generally.
"The demonstration, as a demonstration, was a failure. The sunshield would not fit the tank. Altogether it was rather typically Middle Easty."
- 7th Armoured Brigade War Diary, 30th August 1941

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Re: A24 Cavaliers - where are they?

#19

Post by Sheldrake » 23 Oct 2013, 02:13

Nigel Evan's site is well researched.

The other problem with the list is that it has been complied from a set of establishment tables which defines "OP Tank" "OP Light tank" and "Armoured OP" which can be satisfied by several types of tank, of which the A24 is just one.

Establishments were not always implemented quickly, and sometimes with a "certificate in lieu" - a piece of paper, instead of a tank. The period in question also took place in a reorganisation of divisional structures after an experiment with a one armoured and two infantry brigade structure. E.g. 42 Armd Division was disbanded mid 1943 leaving the gunner regiments orphaned.

I am not sure exactly which documents will tell you what exact types of tank were held by each unit at any one time. Maybe REME records or QM Tech reports - if they have been retained.
Last edited by Sheldrake on 23 Oct 2013, 14:46, edited 1 time in total.

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Re: A24 Cavaliers - where are they?

#20

Post by Don Juan » 23 Oct 2013, 12:17

Here's a couple more photos of Cavalier tanks, from Fletcher's Osprey book. Firstly, another view of 8 AFV Depot, 25 April 1944:
Cav8Depot.jpg
Cav8Depot.jpg (327.4 KiB) Viewed 1457 times
The "II" on the hull-gunner position blanking plate indicates the lead tank belonged to the second battery of 65 (Highland) Medium Regiment RA. The Centaur being washed down on the previous page has a "III" in the same position which indicates that it too was being used as an OP tank for this regiment. It has the serial number T183883U, the "U" I'm pretty sure indicates it is unarmoured. Ian Carter's "Centaur and Cromwell in Camera" book has a photo of another Centaur at the same location and date with serial number T183933U, so unarmoured Centaurs may have been used as miscellaneous OP tanks for RA regiments. As far as I'm aware there was no Centaur OP tank deliberately created, so this might be where the legend of Centaur OP's originates. Worth noting that the ID plate for the range Cavalier I posted on the previous page is also suffixed "U".

Here's one of the early Cavaliers waiting to be inspected by the King at Cannock Chase. The crew appear to be civilians.
Cannock Cavalier.jpg
Cannock Cavalier.jpg (351.22 KiB) Viewed 1457 times
I bet the driver's name was Alf.
"The demonstration, as a demonstration, was a failure. The sunshield would not fit the tank. Altogether it was rather typically Middle Easty."
- 7th Armoured Brigade War Diary, 30th August 1941

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Re: A24 Cavaliers - where are they?

#21

Post by Don Juan » 23 Oct 2013, 12:31

65 (Highland) Medium Regiment RA war diaries for the period are:

WO 166/11380 Jan-Dec 43
WO 171/1060 Jan-Dec 44

Probably worth a shufty sometime.
"The demonstration, as a demonstration, was a failure. The sunshield would not fit the tank. Altogether it was rather typically Middle Easty."
- 7th Armoured Brigade War Diary, 30th August 1941

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Re: A24 Cavaliers - where are they?

#22

Post by Sheldrake » 23 Oct 2013, 15:16

Don Juan wrote:65 (Highland) Medium Regiment RA war diaries for the period are:

WO 166/11380 Jan-Dec 43
WO 171/1060 Jan-Dec 44

Probably worth a shufty sometime.
They might do. War diaries don't always mention the technical details. They may mention 6 tanks delivered, but not the type. The War Diaries are maintained by the adjutant not the Technical Quarter Master.

As an caution against assuming that X type of unit will have Y establishment, I attach a page from the July 1944 WD of 4 RHA. This RHA unit was the supporting regiment for 4th Armoured Brigade, from June 1944, having been brought back from the Mediterranean. Logically this unit could be seen as "elite" as a Regular RHA Regiment and by any standards a veteran of the entire North African campaign.
Attachments
RAHT117_July WD.jpg
4 RHA WD end of July 1944

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Re: A24 Cavaliers - where are they?

#23

Post by Urmel » 31 Oct 2013, 17:45

Sure, but if they came back from the Med without any kit, they may not have been first in line to receive any. I don't think the army worked along the lines of 'oh these blokes are elite, let's given them the best we got', it's probably rather a case of [muzak on/recorded WRAC voice starts]Good morning Colonel. We welcome your request for armoured OPs. An armoured OP assigner will be with you shortly. Please note that you are regiment no. 157 in the queue for armoured OPs. We estimate that you will receive armoured OPs in November 1951. Please feel free to hang up and call again or make use of our automated call-back service (UK only). Have a nice day.[voice ends/muzak off/disconnect tone]
The enemy had superiority in numbers, his tanks were more heavily armoured, they had larger calibre guns with nearly twice the effective range of ours, and their telescopes were superior. 5 RTR 19/11/41

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Re: A24 Cavaliers - where are they?

#24

Post by Sheldrake » 01 Nov 2013, 00:18

Urmel wrote:Sure, but if they came back from the Med without any kit, they may not have been first in line to receive any. I don't think the army worked along the lines of 'oh these blokes are elite, let's given them the best we got', it's probably rather a case of [muzak on/recorded WRAC voice starts]Good morning Colonel. We welcome your request for armoured OPs. An armoured OP assigner will be with you shortly. Please note that you are regiment no. 157 in the queue for armoured OPs. We estimate that you will receive armoured OPs in November 1951. Please feel free to hang up and call again or make use of our automated call-back service (UK only). Have a nice day.[voice ends/muzak off/disconnect tone]
Hmmm, I recognise the fine mills of the military bureaucracy. However, that isn't the impression I get from reading the RA pre D Day documents. There was a lot of staff work to try to get the right kit and trained people in the right places. The highest priority was to equip the assault formations for the critical D Day period.

Part of 4 RHA's problem was that they saw themselves as 4th Armoured Brigade's close support Regiment - a feeling which was mutually reciprocated. However, the Nov 1943 Armd Bde did not include an SP Regiment and 4 RHA were established and scaled to be a buckshee Field Regiment in an AGRA. They may have felt hard done by compared to the other "Army Artillery units" 86 Fd Regt and 147 Fd and 19 RCA which were all given SP equipment for the D Day landings.

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Re: A24 Cavaliers - where are they?

#25

Post by Leo Niehorster » 01 Nov 2013, 10:07

Please excuse me for intruding. The figures I have for tanks in the 21st Army Group include 11 "Cromwell" OP tanks, namely, 3 with the Guards Armoured Division, and 8 for the 7th Armoured Division. Don't know if this is the tank you are looking for.

See http://niehorster.orbat.com/017_britain ... _21AG.html

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Re: A24 Cavaliers - where are they?

#26

Post by Sheldrake » 01 Nov 2013, 20:28

Leo Niehorster wrote:Please excuse me for intruding. The figures I have for tanks in the 21st Army Group include 11 "Cromwell" OP tanks, namely, 3 with the Guards Armoured Division, and 8 for the 7th Armoured Division. Don't know if this is the tank you are looking for.

See http://niehorster.orbat.com/017_britain ... _21AG.html

Cheers
Leo
Leo,

These might be the vehicles for the OP parties of artillery units not equipped with OP Tanks. Do you know if they were A24s or A27s? Were they "command" tanks, with guns removed, as used by the BCs or simply extra gun tanks, reserved for use by an FOO and signaller? I don't know how often these were used in practice. They must have been redundant if the supporting artillery brought their own OP tanks - but a useful set of reserve if they were gun tanks.

I was a little puzzled by the photo of BC K battery's Op/ command tank in Villers Bocage as it is a Sherman rather than a Cromwell. This appeared to defy the logical idea of the artillery OPs using the same type of tank as used by the supported arm.

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Re: A24 Cavaliers - where are they?

#27

Post by Leo Niehorster » 02 Nov 2013, 01:00

Sheldrake wrote: These might be the vehicles for the OP parties of artillery units not equipped with OP Tanks. Do you know if they were A24s or A27s? Were they "command" tanks, with guns removed, as used by the BCs or simply extra gun tanks, reserved for use by an FOO and signaller? I don't know how often these were used in practice. They must have been redundant if the supporting artillery brought their own OP tanks - but a useful set of reserve if they were gun tanks.
Sorry, no idea which model they were, nor do I know if the artillery assigned to the divisions had armored OP or how many.

After finaly reading through the complete thread, I noticed that you had already linked to the 21st AG tank strength page. Should read these things through before answering. So sorry. :oops:

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Re: A24 Cavaliers - where are they?

#28

Post by Gary Kennedy » 02 Nov 2013, 19:34

Just a few thoughts that may or may not help.

The late 1943 establishments for RA Regts allowed for light tank OPs in Field and Medium Regts, however the notes for both stated that -

"In Northwest Europe will be armoured observation posts. In Mediterranean theatre one troop in each battery will have an armoured car, and one troop an armoured observation post." And also -

"If light tank observation posts are not available, tank observation posts may be issued in lieu."

Those two statements are somewhat contradictory when you read them again. My understanding is that the Inf Divs used only armoured OPs (universal carriers) while the Armd Divs had OP tanks, in 21AG at least.

Re the OP tanks noted by Leo and the link to the RAC returns, these were for the pool of eight tanks added to Armd Bde HQs in early 1944, and were RAC machines, not RA, so the gunners tanks aren't included in the RAC returns (same as the RE AVREs, which are likewise excluded).

Gary

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Re: A24 Cavaliers - where are they?

#29

Post by Sheldrake » 03 Nov 2013, 01:21

Gary Kennedy wrote:Just a few thoughts that may or may not help.

The late 1943 establishments for RA Regts allowed for light tank OPs in Field and Medium Regts, however the notes for both stated that -

"In Northwest Europe will be armoured observation posts. In Mediterranean theatre one troop in each battery will have an armoured car, and one troop an armoured observation post." And also -

"If light tank observation posts are not available, tank observation posts may be issued in lieu."

Those two statements are somewhat contradictory when you read them again. My understanding is that the Inf Divs used only armoured OPs (universal carriers) while the Armd Divs had OP tanks, in 21AG at least.

Re the OP tanks noted by Leo and the link to the RAC returns, these were for the pool of eight tanks added to Armd Bde HQs in early 1944, and were RAC machines, not RA, so the gunners tanks aren't included in the RAC returns (same as the RE AVREs, which are likewise excluded).

Gary
Gary, I am not sure what who ever used a "light tank OP", or what one looked like. Was it a Stuart or a Covenanter? I can understand why a BC needed a map table as part of the RHQ team. The BC is part of the artillery C2. His key need is to understand who is doing what, where in the artillery and supported arm world. The FOO needs to be in the right place with the right view and comms, a gridded map and decent map reading skills.

As a post war FOO I have never had the luxury of a specialised OP vehicle. It was always a standard APC or tank, What was an FOO supposed to do with the extra space in a SAheman with the gun removed? The main thing I have envied in specialised OP vehicles was a telescopic periscope (to allow turret down observation_) and optics with graticules. It felt amateurish to be forced to mark graticules on the cupola periscope with chinagraph or use binos through it while closed down.

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Re: A24 Cavaliers - where are they?

#30

Post by Urmel » 03 Nov 2013, 09:17

Probably a Stuart (with or without turret). They introduced these at the end of Operation CRUSADER. There is some reference to this in the WDs of 1 Armoured Division of Jan 42. I can try to dig it out if anyone is interested.
The enemy had superiority in numbers, his tanks were more heavily armoured, they had larger calibre guns with nearly twice the effective range of ours, and their telescopes were superior. 5 RTR 19/11/41

The CRUSADER Project - The Winter Battle 1941/42

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