Canada's Role in WWII

[Canadaservedwithdistinction]

[Split from "What did Germany think of Canada"]

The facts speak for themselves. The Germans clearly were concerned about Canada. They had good reason to be concerned.

If Britain fell then the process of an allied invasion would have been monumentally more difficult.

Britain called upon Canada and indeed the commonwealth for massive support. By the end of the war Canada had the fourth largest navy in the world primarily engaged in escorting supplies across the ocean. Canada trained pilots from every country in the world at countless air bases across the country so that they could join the RAF. What did the RAF need the most -- pilots.

Canada sent 6000 officers to Britain as they were short on officers to lead British units.

If any one of Britain, Canada or the US had been defeated after the Normany landings (never mind the landings themselves) the whole invasion would have been endangered. The Germans suffered their second worst mass defeat after the eastern front when Canadians slugged through to meet up with the Americans and cut off the German army from retreating. The British kept the Germans busy and the Canadians had the most thankless job while the US had the easiest opposition. No commentary just fact.

Canada freed the Netherlands. Again no one country had the ability or resources to win on their own. The allies needed everyone.

To say that the Germans would be so silly as to not consider any and every opponent is to over simplify these events. They built a massive fleet of submarines (U boats) to try and stop the convoys coming from Canada with badly needed supplies. Canada held the western end of that bargain on her own for years before the US joined in and lightened the load.

Many many soldiers died on both sides and were drawn into a conflict by a madman. Germany was not the enemy. Berlin was the it city of the 1930s. Berlin before WW2 helped define contemporary culture for the world. Along came a tyrant and what he thought of Canada... well he was one person on the axis team. It is silly to conclude that countless axis generals and admirals did not feel the need to stem Canada's involvement and understood its effect.

There is more much more. I felt the need to ensure future readers understand that because not all contributions from one country are the subject of a Hollywood movie does not mean they are not important vital and significant.

[Rob Stuart]

By the end of the war Canada had the fourth largest navy ...

If the RCN was ever the fourth largest navy it was only for a very short period in the summer of 1945. See http://www.navalreview.ca/wp-content/up ... m3art2.pdf.

Canada sent 6000 officers to Britain as they were short on officers to lead British units.

The correct number is 673, not 6000. See http://www.war-experience.org/canloan/.

If any one of Britain, Canada or the US had been defeated after the Normany landings (never mind the landings themselves) the whole invasion would have been endangered.

Canada's role in the invasion of Europe was important but let's remember that there were only three Canadian divisions and one armoured brigade in Normandy.

Canada freed the Netherlands.

A part of the Netherlands was freed by British and US forces during and before MARKET-GARDEN, and of course much of the Netherlands was still under German occupation when the war ended, but apart from that, yes, the Netherlands was liberated by Canada. In a sense, this is one of the reasons why Canada's role in the liberation of Europe in not so well known, i.e., we were often involved in subsidiary operations (e.g., taking the Channel ports, clearing the approaches to Antwerp) due to being on the far left flank. We weren't involved in MARKET-GARDEN or the Battle of the Bulge, and it wasn't a Canadian unit which seized the bridge at Remagen or made the first contact with the Russians advancing from the east.

I'd agree that German intelligence staffs probably were well aware of the forces Canada put into the field, and there are a few comments about Canada in Goebbels' diary, but I think that for the most part the senior Nazis did not consider the Canadian force separately from "the British".

[Clive Mortimore]

I'd agree that German intelligence staffs probably were well aware of the forces Canada put into the field, and there are a few comments about Canada in Goebbels' diary, but I think that for the most part the senior Nazis did not consider the Canadian force separately from "the British".

Hi Rob

I don't think the Germans were alone, the British and Americans did not always consider the Canadians separately.

[henryk]

[Split from "What did Germany think of Canada"]
Canada freed the Netherlands. Again no one country had the ability or resources to win on their own. The allies needed everyone.
There is more much more. I felt the need to ensure future readers understand that because not all contributions from one country are the subject of a Hollywood movie does not mean they are not important vital and significant.

Canada , Netherlands and Poland freed the Netherlands.
http://www.polenvoornederlanders.nl/?pa ... g=en[quote]
Liberators of Holland
Like Poland, the Netherlands suffered a lot during the World War II. Polish military units took part in the liberation of this country and well engraved in the memory of its inhabitants.
After that bombardment the Dutch navy and air force went to the United Kingdom and the Dutch armies in Europe” surrendered (except the troops in the province of Zeeland which moved trough Belgium and France to the United Kingdom and formed there the “Princes Irene Brigade”). This brigade, after their landing on the shores of France moved as quickly as they could and were the first allied forces that reached the Dutch border of “their” province of Zeeland (waiting there for a short time giving their queen Wilhelmina the time to pass that border as the first “free” Dutchmen).

The price Zeeland had to pay for not surrendering was very high. The Waffen SS bombed the provincial capital Middelburg. SS means (dark ironically): Schutz Staffel (protection force). Detached to Holland the Polish 1st Armoured Division under the command of General Stanislaw Maczek (16 000 soldiers, about 400 tanks) didn’t see the bombed city of Rotterdam but as they entered the province of Zeeland, they could have seen this ruined city not knowing, at that moment, what their own home cities were looking like. The main problem to solve by the Polish unit was that the Germans isolated the highly populated Holland from the rest of the Netherlands, taking all food and the sources of energy they could put a hand on from the other provinces to supply the German troops. So, alas in vain, the Polish soldiers tried to liberate Holland before the winter started. That winter (in Holland called “the winter of hunger”) people were starving to dead in the cities of Holland. Most Dutchmen still do not want to remember or talk about that period in which children died in their arms. The Dutch were eating cats, dogs (and hate remembering it) and tulip bulbs. Photo above: General Stanislaw Maczek.
, The first place the Polish troops from 1st Armoured Division entered in the Netherlands was the village “Baarle-Nassau”, from where they had to make themselves a way to “Moerdijk”, south of the rivers that form the southern borders of the Province called (North & South) Holland. So their slogan was “from Baarle-Nassau to Moerdijk”. Moerdijk was liberated on November 9, 1944, after a week of a heavy fight. On October 29 the “black devils” – as they were called by Germans – liberated Breda. It was done with a successful outflanking maneuver and without any civilian casualties
After the war many Polish soldiers didn’t return to communist Poland, where communists repressed them for their fight in western allies’ forces (it was so), so many stayed forgotten in England, and some in Holland. Stanislaw Maczek had to work as a servant in a pub in Scotland. After he died (102 years old!) he was, according to his wish, buried in in de field of honor in Breda – another city liberated by 1st Armored Division. Photo: Mayor of Breda Mr. Van Slobbe gives a speech in honor of the 1st Armoured Division

This unit was given the highest order of the Netherlands – the “Military Wilhelm’s Order”. The same order was given in 2006 to 1st Independent Parachute Brigade commanded by general Stanislaw Sosabowski, which also participated in the liberation of Holland, in September 1944 involved in an unfortunately failed Operation Market Garden. Photo below: Gen. Stanisław Sosabowski and his 1st Independent Parachute Brigade in Operation Market Garden.
During World War II the city was, like all other Dutch cities, under German occupation. Each year during Liberation Day festivities, Breda is visited by a large Polish contingent and the city of Breda reserves a special portion of the festivities for the fallen Polish soldiers.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Mn_XxrFc ... re=related – 66 anniversary of Breda liberation

A museum and a monument honoring General Stanislaw Maczek and the Polish 1rst Armoured Division stands at the city center.
[/quote]
See also:
http://forum.axishistory.com/viewtopic. ... 6#p1467086
Liberation of the Netherlands Day

[wenty]

I can understand your concerns. As an Australian, I constantly get frustrated by the fact that certain countries or battles claim all of the glory for themselves when in fact ultimate victory was very much a team effort by the Allies including the Commonwealth nations, which in turn includes Canada and Australia.

Cheers,
Adam.

[sunbury2]

I can understand your concerns. As an Australian, I constantly get frustrated by the fact that certain countries or battles claim all of the glory for themselves when in fact ultimate victory was very much a team effort by the Allies including the Commonwealth nations, which in turn includes Canada and Australia.

Cheers,
Adam.

I very much agree but such is life. Minor countries get whitewashed out, especially if their contribution has been significant.

The Canadians had more men murdered by the SS in Normandy than any other countries troops. 7% of all Canadian deaths (147 men) were murdered as POW's. Yet this atrocity is virtually ignored, the much lesser massacre at Malmedy attracts millions of words, the Canadians barely a few.

[EKB]

I can understand your concerns. As an Australian, I constantly get frustrated by the fact that certain countries or battles claim all of the glory for themselves when in fact ultimate victory was very much a team effort

Tit for tat.

See comments below from General Thomas Blamey. His opinion of who should garner most of the credit for defeating Japan, "unfalteringly" as he put it, is in conflict with your appeals about all this being a "team effort"!


Australian Military Forces
ORDER OF THE DAY
by GENERAL SIR THOMAS BLAMEY,
Commander-in-Chief

Advanced LHQ, Borneo,
15th August, 1945.
SURRENDER OF JAPANESE.

The Japanese have surrendered.

Our long and arduous struggle has ended in complete victory.

The climax has come at the time when all six Australian Divisions are fighting strenuously, each on its own area, in the far flung battle line.  No divisions amongst the Allies have contributed more to the downfall of our enemies than ours.

Our general officers and our commanders of all grades, our regimental officers and our warrant and non-commissioned officers have led you unfalteringly to victory.  Under their guidance, the troops have been formed into a magnificent army to the pride and glory of Australia.

We have fought through the burning days and freezing nights of the desert.  We have fought through the ooze and sweat of tropical jungles.  We have defeated the Italian and the Germans and we would soon have destroyed completely the Japanese before us.

We are now to go to our homes, having done our part in ensuring freedom for all peoples.  We will not forget this freedom, for which we have fought so long and successfully, and so let us stand together in future years to ensure that it remains the crowning heritage of Australian people.  Above all, we give thanks to the Almighty for His greatest and crowning mercy that marks for all people the total downfall of tyranny.

[Signature: T Blamey]

General
Commander-in-Chief,
AUSTRALIAN MILITARY FORCES.
C.8287/45.

Image of original document can be seen at:
http://guides.naa.gov.au/melbourne/gall ... ge011.aspx

[gambadier]

I hadn't realised how light Canadian casualties were in Normandy, if the quoted figures are right that's the equivalent of only two infantry battalions. I think UK cas in Normandy included about 20,000 KIA, in a force of 4 corps, there was one Canadian corps, in rough terms UK had more than double the Canadian rate.

[Rob Stuart]

See comments below from General Thomas Blamey. His opinion of who should garner most of the credit for defeating Japan, "unfalteringly" as he put it, is in conflict with your appeals about all this being a "team effort"!

EKB, you're not being fair to Blamey. His order of the day does not say that the Australian Army deserved most of the credit for defeating Japan. It says that "No divisions amongst the Allies have contributed more to the downfall of our enemies than ours." As a generalization, this is probably true. No US division was in combat before December 1941. No Canadian division was in combat before July 1943 (except for the portion of 2nd Division which fought at Dieppe for a few hours). The Australian divisions went into combat in the Middle East well before Pearl Harbor and fought almost continuously until August 1945. There may be a few British divisions which fought as long, and the US 1st Marine Division and 1st Infantry Division, and probably others, made a huge contribution, but there is no denying the Australian effort. Besides, when Blamey said that no Allied divisions "contributed more", he was certainly implying that some of them contributed as much as the Australian divisions. I see no denial of victory being a team effort.

[Rob Stuart]

7% of all Canadian deaths (147 men) were murdered as POW's.

Where does the figure of 147 come from? I'm aware that 20 were killed at the Ardenne Abbey massacre (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Ardenne_Abbey_massacre), but who were the other 127?

There is no way that 147 constituted 7% of all Canadian deaths. We had 42,000 dead between 1939 and 1945. Even if you're referring only to the Normandy campaign, we had about 5400 dead there. 147 is less than 3% of 5400.

[EKB]

No Canadian division was in combat before July 1943 (except for the portion of 2nd Division which fought at Dieppe for a few hours).

That’s because Prime Minister Mackenzie King was greatly opposed to a prominent Canadian role in any cross Channel adventures. He wanted to keep Canadian troops out of the war in Europe for as long as possible, fearing a military disaster and political fallout for himself.

His stalling tactics could not work forever. As time passed, Mackenzie King was accused of defeatism and being a pacifist. By 1942 Canadian officers in England were agitating to spearhead a major attack on the coast of France. Public opinion in Canada seemed to get behind the idea following the press coverage. Mackenzie King was thus forced into giving consent, although neither he or Prime Minister Churchill specifically approved of the plans for Operation Jubilee.

you're not being fair to Blamey

Strongly disagree. The U.S. Army and the USAAF usually got little or no credit from Blamey or his pundits for fighting in Papua New Guinea. The separate administrations of Papua and New Guinea were governed by Australia when the war broke out.

Many of the white residents at Port Moresby were employees of British companies that plundered the island resources. They were greatly resented by the natives, who were then forced to deal with another occupying threat when Japanese troops landed on the island.

All that backstory was ignored or downplayed by General Blamey while he was forging his legacy. He did not appreciate any mention of the considerable U.S. assistance rendered to Australia, and acknowledged it rarely and grudgingly. Blamey also acted as if he was doing a favor for the United States by leading Australian troops to recover Australia’s own territory.

One reason for Blamey’s mule-headedness: he was a hardcore alcoholic and rarely sober. He alienated the Chiefs of Staff and senior political officials by attending meetings while smelling like a gin mill. Ironically, Douglas MacArthur was one of the few U.S. Army officers who tried to defend Blamey’s reputation after the war, and unfortunately that was also overlooked by all of the Australians who seemed to hate MacArthur.

[Maxschnauzer]

The Forum, Canada at War may be of interest to those of you who are interested in Canada's role in world conflicts, including of course WWII:
http://www.canadaatwar.ca/index.php

[Kelvin]

By the end of the war Canada had the fourth largest navy ...

If the RCN was ever the fourth largest navy it was only for a very short period in the summer of 1945. See http://www.navalreview.ca/wp-content/up ... m3art2.pdf.

Canada sent 6000 officers to Britain as they were short on officers to lead British units.

The correct number is 673, not 6000. See http://www.war-experience.org/canloan/.

If any one of Britain, Canada or the US had been defeated after the Normany landings (never mind the landings themselves) the whole invasion would have been endangered.

Canada's role in the invasion of Europe was important but let's remember that there were only three Canadian divisions and one armoured brigade in Normandy.

Canada freed the Netherlands.

A part of the Netherlands was freed by British and US forces during and before MARKET-GARDEN, and of course much of the Netherlands was still under German occupation when the war ended, but apart from that, yes, the Netherlands was liberated by Canada. In a sense, this is one of the reasons why Canada's role in the liberation of Europe in not so well known, i.e., we were often involved in subsidiary operations (e.g., taking the Channel ports, clearing the approaches to Antwerp) due to being on the far left flank. We weren't involved in MARKET-GARDEN or the Battle of the Bulge, and it wasn't a Canadian unit which seized the bridge at Remagen or made the first contact with the Russians advancing from the east.

I'd agree that German intelligence staffs probably were well aware of the forces Canada put into the field, and there are a few comments about Canada in Goebbels' diary, but I think that for the most part the senior Nazis did not consider the Canadian force separately from "the British".

I would think Canadian army had a position in Hitler's mind at least in late 1944. The objective of Ardennes Offensive was capture of Antwerp to cut off LOC of British 2nd and Canadian 1st Armies. Hitler expected to destroy 30 allied divisions or drive them out of the continent. And he suppose Canadian Army was the first one to withdraw from this war should Ardennes Offensive achieve its goal. In this moment, he considered Canada was separate unit from British and Amercian Armies.

In term of relatively small population, about 11 million, Canadian war effort is great. The Canadian First Army had three infantry divisions and two armoured divisions plus some separate armored brigades and Corps Artillery units and rear service.

[gambadier]

Eh, 1st Cdn Army comprised two corps until the beginning of 1945 - 1st Cdn Corps and 1st British Corps, in early 1945 is was joined by 2 Cdn Corps that had been in Italy. As I understand it the total of 3 inf and 2 armd divs in 1 Cdn Army was not reached until the 2nd corps arrived.

[Kingfish]

Eh, 1st Cdn Army comprised two corps until the beginning of 1945 - 1st Cdn Corps and 1st British Corps, in early 1945 is was joined by 2 Cdn Corps that had been in Italy. As I understand it the total of 3 inf and 2 armd divs in 1 Cdn Army was not reached until the 2nd corps arrived.

Overall you are correct but you have the Canadian Corps swapped around. 1st Canadian Corp fought in Italy, and was brought over in Operation Goldflake to join 1st Canadian army in NWE. 2nd Canadian Corp fought in Normandy and then on to the low countries.

The OOB for 1st Cdn Army varied, but generally consisted of the five Cdn divisions you mentioned, two Cdn independent armored brigades, the 1st Polish armd division and (I believe) the brigade-sized formations from both the Netherlands and Czechoslovakia. And of course the 1st British Corp.

BTW, two other Canadian formations that were not part of 1st Cdn Army are the 1st Canadian Parachute battalion and the 1st Special Service Force, a combined US/Canadian commando-type unit.