British improvised armour

[David W]

Now that's a handsome beast!

Do we know anything more about it?

[Maxschnauzer]

That's all I could find, David. I was hoping somebody here might have more info.

[phylo_roadking]

...handsome beast...

Well, ONE of those descriptive terms is certainly fitting!

I've found the following on the net - in Russian - so I'm copying across the autotranslation! I'm truly sorry...

In difficult for the UK in 1940 the year a lot of effort were applied not only to the capacity of mass-produced tanks and armored vehicles, but also for the construction of improvised armored vehicles, with which it was possible to somehow contain the onslaught of the Germans.

The most popular in this regard were the trucks, especially those that were delivered to the British Commonwealth. Anyway, but in 1941, where in the workshops in Egypt, was built improvised armored chassis Matador. Four-wheel drive ensures that machine a good cross, but rather a simple hull, assembled from several tens of armor, was to ensure manufacturability and assembly netrudoёmkost service. While it could be any pre-British and setting yourself up for the possibility of producing even these "surrogates". But the most notable was the arming of "houmgarda" to the Egyptian style - on top of the cabinet was installed a massive open-topped tower with antitank gun Boys in a head-broneliste and anti-aircraft guns. The crew could consist of 4-5 people. In addition, the dimensions of the reserved space is completely allowed to be transported within a few soldiers.

The experiment was quite successful, with the exception of obscenities reservations (about 9-12 mm) and congestion Coil. Egypt would be quite, considering that in addition to the Germans on the African desert trying to win a larger piece and more Italians. With their tankettes L3 and medium tanks type M11 / 39 anti-tank rifles copes. However, armored AEC "Matador" and remained an experimental machine. After two massacres committed by Her Majesty's fleet Italians managed to establish wiring caravans and flow technology literally went to Egypt stormy river. Thus, the need for this armored car disappeared and her fate remains unknown

"The experiment was quite successful, with the exception of obscenities..."

I don't think I've ever ready a more accurate sentence on the internet...

[Maxschnauzer]

Thank you, Phylo,
That's a lot more information than we had before in spite of the wacky but entertaining translation. I also wondered about "with the exception of obscenities reservations (about 9-12 mm) and congestion Coil." That sounds like something one should see a proctologist about. Quickly!

[amcl]

...handsome beast...

Well, ONE of those descriptive terms is certainly fitting!

I've found the following on the net - in Russian - so I'm copying across the autotranslation! I'm truly sorry...

However, armored AEC "Matador" and remained an experimental machine.

Well, AEC did come up with a proper armoured cars on the Matador chassis, albeit unofficially to start with. And a rather ugly but effective armoured command vehicle. And a "tank destroyer" too. And Matadors in their four- and six-wheel forms were jolly useful as tractors and recovery vehicles and tankers and what-not. All things considered, I'm rather surprised that anyone could have been convinced to part with one in Egypt in 1940.

To return to our muttons, even if the armoured cars of the Sudan Defence Force and the Arab Legion ought to be British enough for this thread, they weren't improvised. But the various "armoured" cars built in Kenya were undoubtedly both. And improvising an armoured car in Nairobi or Mombasa was slightly more challenging than doing so in Nottingham or Manchester.

The Edye pops up in pictures fairly regularly, on p. 105 of Fletcher's Great Tank Scandal for example, or fourth from the top at http://www.network54.com/Forum/330333/t ... aign+1941!. The other turreted model, the optimistically-named Fortress, seems more camera-shy. There is a picture at http://www.mapleleafup.net/forums/showthread.php?t=1828. Final model, the Susie, was turretless, which ought to make recognition easier but hasn't so far. According to Fletcher, all were on Chevrolet chassis and "armoured" by boiler plate provided by the E. African Railways workshops at Nairobi.

The Kenyan cars are interesting also in that they saw action. I have a recollection of reading criticisms of the Edye somewhere, but it is a matter of record that the E. African Armoured Car Regt and their cars reached Addis Ababa in good time to escort General Wetherall and Brigadiers Pienaar and Fowkes into the city to take the surrender.

Cheers,

Angus

Edit As is always the way, no sooner had I hit "submit" than I immediately remembered exactly where I'd read more about the Edye and the E.A. Armoured Car Regt: Guy Campbell's The Charging Buffalo: A History of the Kenya Regiment 1937-1963. Definitely not worth buying for this. I only bought it by accident. I may reread it now that I've remembered it exists, but not primarily for the WWII content.

[sitalkes]

I can't help thinking there's a major issue with this...

Reads great, looks great - but it tends to ignore the fact that tanks aren't limited to travelling by road...whereas those behemoths certainly are! So they're only going to be of use as anti-tank weapons where tanks happen to be encountered on roads - or in locations where a road provided access to a suitable firing location to engage them.

Interesting that they were alloted to Eastern Command with its much flatter terrain...

Well the history of such vehicles seems to be that they were quite effective but had a short life due to their high silhouette and lack of armour:

The British “Susie” may be compared with two German, one Italian, one Russian, and one French improvisation(s).

The German Diana http://www.oocities.org/firefly1002000/605.html was an expedient attempt to mount captured Russian 76.2mm anti-tank guns, rebored to fire the German 75mm rounds, mounted on the 5 tonne half-track Bussing Sd Kfz 6 chassis. Nine of them were used by the DAK, most being lost during the Gazala battles, though they were quite successful and later repaired.

Another German improvisation involved the 88mm on the back of a Sd Kfz half track (8.8cm Flak 18 Selbstfahrlafette auf Zugkraftwagen 12t ) http://www.achtungpanzer.com/88cm-flak- ... en-12t.htm more commonly known as Bunkerflak or Bufla for short. 10 of them were delivered for use against Czechoslovakia after Daimler-Benz heavily modified the chassis to absorb the massive shock of the weapon's recoil.

Bufla went to war in September 1939 with the 1st Company of the 8th Heavy Tank Destroyer Detachment. "The mobility of our machines allows real tactical flexibility," reported the company commander, Capt. Frenzel. "We can change position after two or three shots. Among other things, this allowed us to avoid losses in Poland, as enemy artillery had no time to adjust their fire against us."

Reorganized in February 1940, the company kept six machines and put four worn vehicles into reserve — despite the modifications, it appears that repeated firing did indeed damage the machines. During the 1940 campaign the company was attached to the 1st Panzer Division, seeing action against French bunkers at Sedan.

Across the Meuse, a pair of Bufla were ready when the French 3rd DCR's FCM 36 tanks spearheaded a counter-attack. The big guns devastated the attacking tanks, and the survivors reported that they had met the fire of 100mm guns. Charles DeGaulle's 4th DCR met the big guns again at Montcornet and at Chambry, where even the seemingly invulnerable Char B1 bis exploded at the first shot and the houses of Chambry provided no cover for the French armored infantry, the Chasseuers Portees. Two Bufla were lost in these battles, replaced by vehicles from the reserve. See http://www.avalanchepress.com/bufla.php for more.

The Italians mounted their 90mm AA gun on a truck in an AT role. The Ansaldo company first mounted the 90mm AA gun on the Lancia 3RO truck, a technique first learned in the First World War. It was also mounted on the Breda Dovunque 41. The problem with the Italian version was that it was a slow, had virtually non-existent off-road ability, and it made for a very high profile target, all of which were important disadvantages in the desert war. In fact, reports from the desert said that they were "too vulnerable" and "although very good as to ballistic performance, it had a very high percentage of losses because it is very vulnerable; moreover it has little mobility for cross-country operations."

The Russians had a couple of improvisations, one being the Zis-5 with 76mm gun. “The motor guns had been applied in the Red Army for supporting mechanized units, they represented an automobile with a platform, on which was mounted a pedestal with swinging 76.2mm 1927 regimental gun, containing panel cover. The best known model was motor gun on the basis of the Gaz AAA model, besides that one, was mounted as well an installation on three-wheeled chassis Jag-10. In 1941 this model of gun was released in Leningrad in Kirov factory, mounted on the chassis of Zis-5.” http://henk.fox3000.com/Rtrucks.htm

The French had the Laffly W15T, http://www.littlewars.se/french1940/w15tcc.html which was different from the others in being originally full armoured but the production versions only had armoured protection for the cab an extended gun-shield. They proved very successful in combat. The Laffly W15T (T being short for tracteur) was a 6x6 artillery tractor use to tow the 47 SA 37 anti-tank gun. The 47mm anti tank gun had a practical range against tanks of 1,000m, a distance an enemy tank could cross in only a few minutes. A self propelled gun would have a considerable advantage over the towed gun in that it could be in position and ready to fire in only a few seconds, fire a number of shots, and then move quickly to a new firing position. The W15TCC, although lightly armoured, was fast and proved very good at these hit and run tactics. It’s gun was limited in traverse to shooting out of the back of the vehicle.

On 17th May the fast advance of the Panzer Divisions preciptated an order for 50 vehicles, because of the urgency it was decided to reduce the armour. It was neccessary to get them to front in time to make a difference, regardless of how well they were protected. The cab was only partially armoured and included an armoured windscreen which could be lifted when not in combat to make driving easier. Instead of boxing in the gun, it recieved an enlarged gun-shield to protect the crew. Again 12-15mm plate was used. The first vehicles were delived on 25th May, only 8 days later. They were then produced at a rate of five vehicles every two days, a total of 70 vehicles being delivered to the army.

The 54th BACA 11th RA under the command of sous-lieutenant (Sub-Lieutenant) Brussaux recieved its five W15TCC tank hunters on 29th May 1940. As quickly as 5th June, the tank hunter platoon is in action deployed on the Belloy heights near Abbeville on the River Somme. That evening, about 20 German light tanks are spotted on the road to Abbeville and the French open fire with their 47mm guns at a range of 2,000m. Two German tanks are immediately knocked out and catch fire. A futher two tanks are reported knocked-out and immobilized.

On 6th June, the 54th BACA is deployed to block the Abbeville road down which 50 enemy tanks are seen advancing. The first W15TCC destroys three advancing Panzer IV tanks and then retires drawing the pursuing Germans into an ambush by two supporting W15TCCs. These open fire and a further 6 tanks are destroyed and 4 others knocked-out and immobilized. The Germans advance on foot and are driven off by the defensive fire from the French crew's Thompson submachineguns.

The German Panzers retire and decide to bypass this resistance and leave it to the folllow-up troops to mop-up. The senior officer present, commandant (Major) Decoux of the 7th Dragoons reported 18 tanks knocked-out but sous-lieutenant Brussaux only saw 9 burning and 4 knocked-out. The French lost one W15TCC due to mechanical breakdown which was then destroyed by its crew. They had no other casualties.

To read the rest, go to http://www.littlewars.se/french1940/w15tcc.html During its eight-day fight the 54th BACA destroyed 28 tanks and 5 armoured cars.

As regards the AEC armoured car, I have some information on that at home I think.

[phylo_roadking]

Well, AEC did come up with a proper armoured cars on the Matador chassis, albeit unofficially to start with. And a rather ugly but effective armoured command vehicle. And a "tank destroyer" too.

...although, to be fair, that one was more of a giant porteee than a "tank destroyer"

And Matadors in their four- and six-wheel forms were jolly useful as tractors and recovery vehicles and tankers and what-not.

But slowwwww......

All things considered, I'm rather surprised that anyone could have been convinced to part with one in Egypt in 1940.

I have a feeling they didn't It's probably a write-off that someone got their hands on from REME!

[phylo_roadking]

Well the history of such vehicles seems to be that they were quite effective but had a short life due to their high silhouette and lack of armour:

The British “Susie” may be compared with two German, one Italian, one Russian, and one French improvisation(s).

The German Diana http://www.oocities.org/firefly1002000/605.html was an expedient attempt to mount captured Russian 76.2mm anti-tank guns, rebored to fire the German 75mm rounds, mounted on the 5 tonne half-track Bussing Sd Kfz 6 chassis

Another German improvisation involved the 88mm on the back of a Sd Kfz half track...

To be fair - compared to the Susie, the Germans' family of various classes of halftrack had excellent crosscountry capability anyway! So, arguably, would the French improvisation...

Laffly W15T (T being short for tracteur) was a 6x6 artillery tractor use to tow the 47 SA 37 anti-tank gun.

[sitalkes]

Yes the 2 pounder portee would also be in the same category as the smaller vehicles but I think it rather surprising to hear of a 12 tonne half-track being quick off the mark.

Regarding the AEC armoured car, the following comes from AFV Profile 21: Armoured Cars by B T White.

The caption for the Egyptian AEC armoured car says "Experimental armoured car on front-engine A.E.C. Matador chassis. This work was carried out in Egypt in 1941"

A. E. C. Armoured Cars
These were the only British-built diesel-engined armoured cars in service in World War Il and employed many components of the "Matador'' Tractor, 4 x 4, Medium Artillery. Considerable rearrangement was necessary, however, and within a fairly conventional layout for a rear-engined four-wheel drive armoured car some ingenuity was shown in achieving a compact hull design. The engine, with the gearbox attached in front of it, was mounted inclined downwards- this not only helped reduce the angle of the shaft transmitting the drive through universal joints to a transfer box situated between the front and rear wheels, but also enabled the height' of the rear hull deck over the engine to be reduced. The engine was also, in plan view, positioned at an angle which left sufficient room alongside it for the differential for the rear wheels, thus making for a lower mounting than would otherwise have been possible. The transfer box carried the drive forwards to an underslung differential mounted just right of centre on . the front axle and rearwards to the rear differential. Drive for normal road conditions was on the front wheels only. The suspension of the armoured cars consisted of longitudinal semi-elliptic leaf springs. The armoured hull of the A.E.C. Armoured Cars, mounted on a rectangular chassis, had vertical sides but was tapered from the centre, where it was at its widest, to the front and also, to a lesser extent, to the rear. It was chiefly remarkable in that no direct vision port was provided for the driver, reliance being placed on twin periscopes when closed down. At other times the driver's seat could be raised to allow him to look over the top of the glacis plate. The turret, mounted on a ball race, was traversed by electrical power with optional traverse by hand. On the Mark I, a Valentine tank two-man turret was used but for the Marks II-III'a special three-man turret was designed, making a four-man crew for the armoured car.

[amcl]

Since the not-so-improvised Diana, W15TCC, et cetera, have been covered, we might as well add the Sudanese & Transjordan armoured cars to the list after all.

The Transjordan's Arab Legion continued the tradition, which originated with Ford Model T's in WW1 (covered in Fletcher's War Cars and elsewhere) of using unarmoured vans and trucks as "scout cars". By 1940 these were American Ford light trucks with machine-guns carrying a small number of riflemen, picture at http://mailer.fsu.edu/~akirk/tanks/Jordan/Jor-AC.jpg, together with the principal armoured car used by the Arab Legion. Fletcher (Great Tank Scandal, p. 105 + pic on p. 106) simply calls these as Ford-based and refers to a large number. Elsewhere they are called "Wagners" after the Haifa-based ironworks which provided the armoured bodies and the specific and low number of six is mentioned. They were delivered in the summer of 1939. The armour was two sheets of mild steel with a (apparently <1in) plywood sandwich, which Fletcher describes as "sufficiently bulletproof". As can be seen, there were two observation/rifle ports in each side. The turret shape seems reminiscent only of the unique RAF Crossley AC4 and was presumably of local construction rather than having been salvaged from a graveyard somewhere. These cars saw action in Iraq and Syria

Like the Arab Legion, the inter-war Sudan Defence Force relied on American Fords to equip its motor machine-gun companies, actual armoured vehicles being limited to just two Rolls-Royce armoured cars. There is an interesting page on the SDF at http://www.melik.org.uk/articles/soldie ... nce-force/ which shows these and other vehicles. And while on the subject of those Sudanese Rollers, the National Archives appear to have a picture from 1964 showing one still active on a patrol in Sudan. Linking to that defeats me. It's image ref CO 1069/15 (11).

At some point shortly before or after Italy joined WW2, 45 armoured cars were ordered for the SDF's MMG coys based on 1.5 ton US Ford chassis. There is a picture in Fletcher, p. 105, and here http://www.network54.com/Forum/330333/t ... aign+1941! there is the same pic plus one other mid-way down the page. The cars were armed with Vickers guns and Boys ATRs and the open-topped turrets could be fitted with wire mesh coverings. Unlike the Arab Legion, the source of the armoured bodies is a mystery to me, as is their nature, Given the timescale involved, Egypt or South Africa seem most likely. [Production of complete armoured cars in SA may have been limited by availability of imported chassis (Martin & Orpen, South Africa at War, p. 85)] Like their rather more primitive Kenyan cousins, these vehicles are reported to have given good service in the East African campaign and beyond. Here's a picture of one in rather hilly terrain near Keren from The Mediterranean & Middle East, vol I, courtesy of Hyperwar: http://www.ibiblio.org/hyperwar/UN/UK/U ... hoto41.jpg

Cheers,

Angus

[David W]

Also, just a quick note on the Ansaldo company mounted 90mm AA gun on the Lancia 3RO truck. This was initially (in North Africa) an attempt to increase the mobility of the AA gun, not to create a tank killer. The crews were given no training in engaging ground targets. The guns only had sights for engaging aircraft, and as far as I have been able to ascertain to date, no A/P ammunition was issued, at least not in 1942.

[Maxschnauzer]

This one slightly pre-dates 1940-43 but for all I know could still have been in use during that time frame:
Source:http://hmvf.co.uk/forumvb/showthread.ph ... -Car/page3

Eleventh Hussars arriving at Ludd. Armoured trolly preceding the troop train of the 11th Huzars 1938 July 15

hmvf106.jpg (126.59 KiB) Viewed 1670 times

[Gooner1]

The 11th Hussars were in either Palestine or Egypt in 1938.

Nowhere in UK called Ludd AFAIK.

[Maxschnauzer]

Correct, I believe Ludd is now known as Lod in Israel, the Palestinian Mandate back in those days.

[Gooner1]

Cool. Unlike most of the British improvised armour, that would probably have seen action.
I wonder if that screen was to keep out the sun or grenades.