British Armoured Divisions

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Gary Kennedy
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Re: British Armoured Divisions

#31

Post by Gary Kennedy » 29 Apr 2017, 15:14

Joslen gives commanders as;

Brig HB Latham from 05Feb40

Brig WHE Gott from 08Apr41

Brig HB Latham from 16Apr41

Gary

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yantaylor
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Re: British Armoured Divisions

#32

Post by yantaylor » 29 Apr 2017, 15:44

Superb stuff Gary; if anyone wants me to post the structure of the 2nd AD, then I can place it right here because thanks to the help of you guys it is nearly finished.

Yan.


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Re: British Armoured Divisions

#33

Post by yantaylor » 30 Apr 2017, 14:03

Having a bash at the 6th armoured division and so far it has been pretty straight forward, but there was a couple of units which were considered as divisional troops and these were;

"B" Heavy Support Group
1st Heavy Support Company (Middlesex Regt)

Now because these units were only small, there is no info knocking around [or if there is I cannot locate it].

Also who commanded the 1st Infantry Brigade [Guards]?

Thanks
Yan.

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Re: British Armoured Divisions

#34

Post by Gary Kennedy » 30 Apr 2017, 18:03

1st Gds Inf Bde had about a dozen commanders, can you narrow it down to a date period?

The Heavy Gp/Coy was a theatre specific organisation, with two MMGs Pls and two 4.2-in Mortar Pls, rather than the three MG and one Mortar Pl found in the usual Indep MG Coy allotted to late war Armd Divs.

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Re: British Armoured Divisions

#35

Post by yantaylor » 30 Apr 2017, 20:01

Thanks Gary, I found the commanders late this afternoon, got fed up of watching the two London teams bore each other to death on the football pitch so I went back on my computer [thank got for rugby league I say].

These are the two commanders who were in charge when the 1st Guards Inf Brig. were attached to the 6th armoured division;

Brigadier F.A.V. Copland Griffiths (14th July 1940 to 14th April 1943)
Brigadier S.A. Foster (14th April to 24th July 1943)

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yantaylor
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Re: British Armoured Divisions

#36

Post by yantaylor » 30 Apr 2017, 20:04

What does the letter B stand for in the "B" Heavy Support Group, the 1st Heavy Support Company was attached from the Middlesex regiment, but was that other group a adhoc unit with no parent unit?

Yan.

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Re: British Armoured Divisions

#37

Post by Gary Kennedy » 01 May 2017, 15:50

I've had scout round and can't find anything to explain the 'B' designation. This is wholly unsupported, so the source police will be after me shortly, but it's the best idea I can come up with. 1st Armd Div were disbanded in Italy at the beginning of 1945, and would have started to wind down before then. Perhaps they were slated to have an equivalent Heavy Support Group for their Inf Bde, which could have been 'A'? We know that 6th Armd got their 'B' Gp in Dec44. Just guessing on my part.

I'll see if I can raise a query over on WW2talk.

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Re: British Armoured Divisions

#38

Post by yantaylor » 01 May 2017, 16:14

Thanks Gary.

I have started work on the 7th armoured division and when I came to the 4th armoured brigade I was stopped in my tracks by the amount of times it was attached to the 6 AD, it must be in double figures as it left to go to India and then hopped in and out of various units, just to return to the 6th.

Yan.

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Re: British Armoured Divisions

#39

Post by Sheldrake » 02 May 2017, 00:21

yantaylor wrote:Having a bash at the 6th armoured division and so far it has been pretty straight forward, but there was a couple of units which were considered as divisional troops and these were;

"B" Heavy Support Group
1st Heavy Support Company (Middlesex Regt)

Now because these units were only small, there is no info knocking around [or if there is I cannot locate it].

Also who commanded the 1st Infantry Brigade [Guards]?

Thanks
Yan.
Here is the Orbat of 6 Armd Div in April 1945 from CAB 44
6 Armd Div orbat.jpg
The "support companies" are the heavy weapons 4.2" mortars and MMGs. They seem to be centralised rather than under command of the infantry brigades. The WW2 abbreviation for Middlesex Regiment was Mx rather than (MX) which I would interpret as (Mixed) This has the "C" support group rather than "B".

Armoured Divisions needed more infantry than just one brigade, and, as you can see from the Orbat the 6th Armd Div has two infantry and one Armoured brigades.

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Re: British Armoured Divisions

#40

Post by yantaylor » 02 May 2017, 16:59

That's very interesting Sheldrake, I wonder if the Mx does stand for mixed, but looking at the these units in detail we can see that Machine Gun Battalions are made up like this;

BHQ:
Heavy Mortar Company [16 x 4.2in mortars]
3 x Machine Gun Companies [12 x Vickers MGs each]

So maybe one company was MG and the other one Mortar.

Yan.

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Re: British Armoured Divisions

#41

Post by Sheldrake » 02 May 2017, 17:34

yantaylor wrote:That's very interesting Sheldrake, I wonder if the Mx does stand for mixed, but looking at the these units in detail we can see that Machine Gun Battalions are made up like this;

BHQ:
Heavy Mortar Company [16 x 4.2in mortars]
3 x Machine Gun Companies [12 x Vickers MGs each]

So maybe one company was MG and the other one Mortar.

Yan.
Joslin provides a clue.

6th Armoured Division was deployed to North Africa in late 1942 early 1943 on a UK establishment with a MMG Company to support its infantry Brigade. It may well have been formed by taking a cadre from some Home forces MMG battlaion and making up the numbers with drafts from training establishments.

1st Armoured Division was one of three (1,7 &10) armoured divisions, which received a Support Group from the break up of an extant Medium Machine Gun battalion in the operational theatre. This may well have resulted in a support group (MX) with a mixture of MMG and 4.2" mortars. Thus 1 Heavy Support group (MX) is the support group from the 1st Armoured Division and C Heavy support group is 6th Armoured's own.

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Re: British Armoured Divisions

#42

Post by Gary Kennedy » 02 May 2017, 21:19

I'm confused now.

I've checked my copy of Joslen and can't see mention of an MMG Coy as either Div Tps or with 38 (Irish) Inf Bde while it was with 6th Armd Div, nor with 1st Gds Inf Bde (the Guards did have an MMG Coy on Home Service for a spell during 1942).

Likewise I'm not familiar with the three Armd Divs mentioned receiving a Brigade Support Group while in the Middle East/Med (the WE for Sp Bns was in flux till summer of 1943).

Whereabouts are they mentioned?

Interesting line-up for 6th Armd Div; looks like 104 RHA were Army Tps in Italy after leaving 10th Armd Div. 625 Fd Sqn were already with 6th Armd Div, 626 get a brief mention with 23rd Armd Bde, but no mention of 628 Sqn in Joslen (the usual complaint of little word on units outside of Divs).

5th Cdn Armd Div briefly had a second Inf Bde, found by reorganising a Recce and LAA Regt and filling out with the Mot Bn. I'm not sure offhand if they increased their supporting arms accordingly.

Gary

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Re: British Armoured Divisions

#43

Post by Sheldrake » 03 May 2017, 01:34

Gary Kennedy wrote:I'm confused now.

I've checked my copy of Joslen and can't see mention of an MMG Coy as either Div Tps or with 38 (Irish) Inf Bde while it was with 6th Armd Div, nor with 1st Gds Inf Bde (the Guards did have an MMG Coy on Home Service for a spell during 1942)

Check basic structure No V and No VIII mentioned in note 1 to the structure of 6th Armd Div. This note also states that 6th Armd Div had a Heavy support group instead of a MMG Coy
.

Likewise I'm not familiar with the three Armd Divs mentioned receiving a Brigade Support Group while in the Middle East/Med (the WE for Sp Bns was in flux till summer of 1943).
(SEE Note C to Armoured Division Basic structure No VI Aug 1942)

Whereabouts are they mentioned?
Referenced above

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Re: British Armoured Divisions

#44

Post by Gary Kennedy » 03 May 2017, 19:16

I see where you're looking now, thanks, but I don't think it applies to the query of 6th Armd Div.

While structure V of the Armd Div called for Bde and Div Sp Coys (these were a different thing to the subsequent Sp Gps) Joslen notes that only Guards Armd received such. No reference to 6th Armd Div having a support unit of any type until late 1944 in Italy, which is the unit we're cogitating on.

I'd forgotten the allocation of MG Coys in late 1942 to 8th Army Armd Divs. 1NF had been in the Middle East since the outbreak of war, and the Bn was reassembled and sent to Syria after the conclusion of the desert campaign. I've not seen anything to suggest they functioned as anything other than an MG Bn throughout, so they were simply attached to the Armd Divs for a duration. I think the RE handled all the 4.2-in mortars at second Alamein.

Gary

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Re: British Armoured Divisions

#45

Post by David W » 03 May 2017, 20:42

The 4.2" mortars (18) at 2nd Alamein were indeed all R.E

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