QF 6 pounder in infantry support role

[chiangshan]

Hello

I know it's an AT gun but how about it's effectiveness when used against infantry or bunker? Can you share any assessment? Thank you in advance.

[Gary Kennedy]

There's a comment from a Canadian record (search for CMHQ141 for the original PDF);

"In operations it (6-pr gun) was found particularly effective against buildings. A report from Italy states that it was more effective than the 17-pr in this role (Cdn Ops in Med Area, series 17, pg 9)".

Gary

[Sheldrake]

This sounds like the lessons from Ortona. The key issue was that the 6 pdr was easier to manhandle.

[Alanmccoubrey]

In December 1943 the 17 pounder hadn't yet had an HE round issued so of course the 6 pounder with its HE round was more useful.

[yantaylor]

That's par for the course concerning the British army in early to mid WW2, they issued ammo for a certain role and that's it, they did the same with the 2 pdr, apparently they developed a he round for the 2 pdr but never issued it, unless I have got it wrong, which happens with my posts

Yan.

[Tom from Cornwall]

Although to be fair, they did AP rounds for the 25 pdr!

Regards

Tom

[yantaylor]

What would be a standard crew for both the 6 pdr and 17 pdr, I have six for the 6 pdr, not sure on the 17 pdr but who did what?

Cheers
Yan.

[Gary Kennedy]

6-pdr crew was an NCO, four gun numbers and one or two drivers, dependent upon transport. 17-pdr crew was bigger, NCO and seven gun numbers, plus drivers, again based upon the vehicles used. Crew roles for the 6-pdr, as given in Inf Trng Part VI (Sep1943) were;

Detachment commander (NCO)
No.1 Layer
No.2 Loader
No.3 2-in-C of Det and 'link numbers'
No.4 Amn number (also manned LMG)

I don't have a similar layout for the 17-pdr crew roles.

Gary

[yantaylor]

Thanks Gary, are these men classed as artillery gunners or infantry men?

I have just found this on a standard British Bofors crew, I was interested in this because my Father served on one throughout the Second World War as a gun sergeant, he joined the TA in 1936 and never came out till 1959 , apparently after the war they needed NCOs to train the national service lads, so he was based at Peninsular barracks in Warrington England.

Bofors Crew:
Sergeant/Gun Commander
Bombardier/Assistant Commander
Lance Bombardier/Gun Layer (Line)
Gunner/Gun Layer (Elevation)
Gunner/Loader-Firer
2 x Gunners/Ammunition Bearers

I know it is lacking any drivers etc.

Regards
Yan.

[Gary Kennedy]

Anti-tank crews within an Infantry Battalion of any type would be infantrymen, those in RA Anti-tank Regiments proper would be gunners.

Gary

[Sheldrake]

That's par for the course concerning the British army in early to mid WW2, they issued ammo for a certain role and that's it, they did the same with the 2 pdr, apparently they developed a he round for the 2 pdr but never issued it, unless I have got it wrong, which happens with my posts

Yan.

Not strictly fair.

It was not normal British Army policy to employ anti tank guns in other roles. , though it did so when tactically sensible. E.g. SP Anti tank guns as bunker busters on D Day.

The 6 pdr and 17 Pdr were urgently needed as anti tank guns. Getting the gun into production with AP shot came first. An HE round was issued for both equipments later. The kinetic energy from a 57mm or 76mm soli shot would do a lot of damage.

The British military did not think small calibre HE rounds were particularly effective. This prejudice may have dated from the Boer wars and their expereince facing Krup pom pom guns.

Incidentally there is one account of an Bofors SP gun being used in street fighting. One gun from F Troop 92 Light AA Regiment was claimed to have shot up the church tower at Le Port Benouville on D Day forcing a sniper to surrender.

[yantaylor]

I was not knocking our lot , in a way we were in a tight spot up till 1943, so we had to prioritize things and AP shot would, as you say come first especially with ATGs.

I bet the western desert was an awful place to be when you had an AT gun firing at you and all you could do was shoot back with solid shot.

What I do find strange is that we would rather equip some of our tanks with 3.7in howitzers rather than issue HE rounds, I know these vehicles were also used to fire smoke, which again could have been fired by smoke discharges fitted to the tanks themselves, but is it true that they only had limited supply of HE ammo on board these tanks and most of the ammo was in fact smoke rounds?

Going back to Bofors and Sheldrake's story about the SP Gun, was their two versions of this vehicle used in Normandy, one with just the armoured shield of the gun itself and another with a three sided armoured shield?
I have seen photos of both versions, but I cannot find any data on the numbers of each version built.

All the best
Yan.

[John Hilly]

Bofors Crew:
Sergeant/Gun Commander
Bombardier/Assistant Commander
Lance Bombardier/Gun Layer (Line)
Gunner/Gun Layer (Elevation)
Gunner/Loader-Firer
2 x Gunners/Ammunition Bearers

I was trained among others, also as a Bofors Gun Commander, but our guns had Bofors course and speed corrector.
Gunner/Corrector also fired the weapon.

Now I see from your list, that the Britis had the loader firing the gun. How was this arranged?

With best, J-P

[yantaylor]

I don't really know J-P, But this site shows you the arrangement rather well;
http://maltacommand.com/bofors.html
Regards
Yan.

[Gary Kennedy]

I did wonder if there might be a few more crew positions for a gun in a mobile LAA Regt, as the WE gives a Sergeant and eight gun numbers, plus driver, from late 1943 onwards.

Gary