QF 6 pounder in infantry support role

[Sheldrake]

What I do find strange is that we would rather equip some of our tanks with 3.7in howitzers rather than issue HE rounds, I know these vehicles were also used to fire smoke, which again could have been fired by smoke discharges fitted to the tanks themselves, but is it true that they only had limited supply of HE ammo on board these tanks and most of the ammo was in fact smoke rounds?

There are several threads on this and other internet forums on theory and practice of WW2 British tank armament.http://ww2talk.com/index.php?threads/3i ... ers.52013/ The 3.7" howitzers equipping early war close support tanks had limed range and accuracy. They werenlt really the equivalent of the L24 75mm fitted to the PZ IVD. The British only solved the problem with 75mm guns and better integration with the artillery.

Going back to Bofors and Sheldrake's story about the SP Gun, was their two versions of this vehicle used in Normandy, one with just the armoured shield of the gun itself and another with a three sided armoured shield?
I have seen photos of both versions, but I cannot find any data on the numbers of each version built.

Which photos are you referring to? The Bofors painted in 92 Light AA markings near Pegasus Bridge and in the museum grounds may be post war variants. There are few surviving Bofors SP guns.

[yantaylor]

Hello Sheldrake, I have been searching for any decent photos of these two variants, but alas this is the best I can come up with, but it shows the two versions well.

https://www.scalemodellingnow.com/armou ... ild-review

Cheers
Yan.

[yantaylor]

I did wonder if there might be a few more crew positions for a gun in a mobile LAA Regt, as the WE gives a Sergeant and eight gun numbers, plus driver, from late 1943 onwards.

Gary

Unfortunately Gary, my dad is no longer with us, but he could have answered this question at a drop of a hat.

Yan.

[yantaylor]

6-pdr crew was an NCO, four gun numbers and one or two drivers, dependent upon transport. 17-pdr crew was bigger, NCO and seven gun numbers, plus drivers, again based upon the vehicles used. Crew roles for the 6-pdr, as given in Inf Trng Part VI (Sep1943) were;

Detachment commander (NCO)
No.1 Layer
No.2 Loader
No.3 2-in-C of Det and 'link numbers'
No.4 Amn number (also manned LMG)

I don't have a similar layout for the 17-pdr crew roles.

Gary

Gary, the No.3 who is second in command, must be corporal? and what is "link numbers"

Cheers
Yan.

[Sheldrake]

6-pdr crew was an NCO, four gun numbers and one or two drivers, dependent upon transport. 17-pdr crew was bigger, NCO and seven gun numbers, plus drivers, again based upon the vehicles used. Crew roles for the 6-pdr, as given in Inf Trng Part VI (Sep1943) were;

Detachment commander (NCO)
No.1 Layer
No.2 Loader
No.3 2-in-C of Det and 'link numbers'
No.4 Amn number (also manned LMG)

I don't have a similar layout for the 17-pdr crew roles.

Gary

Gary, the No.3 who is second in command, must be corporal? and what is "link numbers"

Cheers
Yan.

The gun numbers in infantry training may not may be the same as in the artillery Gun drill book. Perhaps the numbering is different in anti tank gunnery but every equipment on which In have served the No1 is usually the detachment commander and cover number aka detachment 2IC is a high number and looks after ammunition.

[Michael Kenny]

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=4ABTGpFkpP4

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Q7BWX_hnFhg

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=S8h9-Q7U3Jg

[yantaylor]

I contacted an Australian web site, which covers Australian LAA units, from the western desert. A chap called David who actually served on a bofors in this theatre during WW2 sent me this information of a standard gun crew;

No. 1: gun sergeant
No. 2: gun layer (line) horizontal - right-hand side
No. 3: gun layer (elevation) – left-hand side
No. 4: loader and firer – fired using a foot pedal
No. 5: ammunition supply
No. 6: ammunition supply
No 7: 2 I/C, bombardier/spotter.
Driver No.1 Morris Tractor
Driver No.2 Chevrolet 3ton truck

Yan.

[Clive Mortimore]

Hello Sheldrake, I have been searching for any decent photos of these two variants, but alas this is the best I can come up with, but it shows the two versions well.

https://www.scalemodellingnow.com/armou ... ild-review

Cheers
Yan.

Hi Yan

F troop 92nd LAA Regt RA were equipped with Morris C9 Bofors SP guns not Crusaders. The LAA batteries that landed in the first wave on 6th June had Crusader SPs. Second wave batteries landed with Morris (or Ford in CRA units) SPs.

http://www.maps.org.im/morris-commercia ... fors-gun-0

http://www.armourbook.com/uploads/forum ... ofors3.jpg

[yantaylor]

Thanks Clive, I didn't know that they were still using those types of portee guns, I thought they only had towed and armoured SP variants.

[Sheldrake]

I did wonder if there might be a few more crew positions for a gun in a mobile LAA Regt, as the WE gives a Sergeant and eight gun numbers, plus driver, from late 1943 onwards.

Gary

That is OT but a Light AA Gun needs more ammunition numbers than an anti tank gun. The 40mm bofors LAA Gun fired 100Kg of ammunition every minute. A 6 pdr Anti tank gun might do well to fire six rounds (36lb 15Kg) in an engagement

[Clive Mortimore]

Thanks Clive, I didn't know that they were still using those types of portee guns, I thought they only had towed and armoured SP variants.

Hi Yan

For most of the North West Europe campaign LAA batteries with infantry divisions had one troop of towed guns and one troop of self propelled guns on Morris or Ford chassis. Corps LAA batteries had 2 troops of towed guns. Armoured divisions had two troops of self-propelled guns on Crusader tanks chassis. Very early in the campaign there was three troops per battery, lack of targets and shortages of infantry saw the third troop being disbanded.

Early in the campaign some batteries had a 20mm troop added. Towards the end of the war troops were issued with US quad 0.5 browning mounts, both towed and SP.

Canadian batteries had triple and quad 20mm Polsten guns instead of 40mm Bofors guns, again towed and SP.

[Gary Kennedy]

I must admit that contradicts a few areas of my own research from a few years back now. Inf Div LAA Regts with three 40-mm Btys, each of three Tps; one Tp SP on wheels and two Tps towed. A Tp of 20-mm guns to be added to each Bty (though I could never discern to what scale this actually occurred) from Feb/Mar44. Armd Div LAA Regts with three 40-mm Btys, each of three Tps, all Tps SP on wheels. I do remember going round the houses somewhat to establish whether Armd Divs had 40-mm guns on Crusaders and at least coming to the conclusion they did not.

During July 1944 21AG LAA Regts disbanded the third 40-mm Tp in each Bty and any 20-mm Tps. 21AG LAA Btys had their own WE issued late 1944 confirming two 40-mm Tps per Bty; Inf Div one towed and one SP, Armd Div both SP. Corps level LAA Btys, I think, followed Inf Div format.

Very late on (Feb/Mar 1945) RA LAA Btys had a new WE proposed, with two Tps, each of four 40-mm guns and four quad Maxson mounts. Again I don't know if this was adopted, the quad .50-cals had to come from US sources, and it was very late in the campaign. The RCA LAA WEs I have follow the British layout (ref II/180/2 and III/12A/3 of 23Mar1944 and II/180A/1 and III/12B/1 of 12Sep1944, the latter republished Aug1945). No mention of 20-mm guns outside of the 20-mm Tps of early 1944. I have one snapshot of artillery holdings in 21AG from early 1945 and that only details 40-mm and 3.7-in pieces as I recall.

Gary

[yantaylor]

That brings me nicely to my next question, my father was a WO II in a post war bofors regiment, so would that have made him the top Sgt in a AA battery?
If so then how many men would be under him, because I expect that a battery would have numerous units besides bofors troops and would have supply units attached.
I will have a guess and say that over my dad would have been at least two officers, then it would have been him and a host of other sergeants under him.

I still have his wrist band with a crown on it, which he wore in hot weather and unfortunately its the only thing I have by him, besides a letter he wrote [in French too], to a local paper in France, I can't recall the name of the place as the letter is in the loft, but he mentions that the local paper took photos of a huge bomb creator which was used by the MPs to coral a load of captured SS soldiers and my dad and a few of his friends were stood on the rim of this creator as the photo was taken. I suppose that he tried to get a copy of the photo, but seeing that this was back in the 1970s, I don't think he had much luck.

I do have one good photo of him though, which was taken up in Scotland [Luss I think] in 1943, my dad is the chap on the extreme right.
https://postimg.org/image/92y2ogc9x/

Regards
Yan.

[Gary Kennedy]

Yan,

I won't pretend to know anything for the post-war period, depends how long after the war it was perhaps for how things might have changed.

In late 1943 at least there was a single Warrant Officer II in an LAA Bty of the type that might be found with a Division or Corps Troops. He was part of the Bty HQ, which included three Officers (Major, Captain and Subaltern). The Bty consisted of HQ, (3 Offrs, 24 ORs), three 40-mm Tps (each 3 Offrs, 79 ORs), and when authorised a 20-mm Tp (3 Offrs, 56 ORs). At that point the WOII would be the senior OR in the Bty. When the change came I'm not sure, but the Sjt in Troop HQ was bumped up (quite considerably) to a WOII, so there would be three or four in a Bty, depending if they were slimmed down to two 40-mm Tps or not.

Whether that persisted into the post-war I don't know.

If you know his Regiment I'll bet the WW2talk mob could fill you in on his whereabouts.

Gary

[Clive Mortimore]

I must admit that contradicts a few areas of my own research from a few years back now. Inf Div LAA Regts with three 40-mm Btys, each of three Tps; one Tp SP on wheels and two Tps towed. A Tp of 20-mm guns to be added to each Bty (though I could never discern to what scale this actually occurred) from Feb/Mar44. Armd Div LAA Regts with three 40-mm Btys, each of three Tps, all Tps SP on wheels. I do remember going round the houses somewhat to establish whether Armd Divs had 40-mm guns on Crusaders and at least coming to the conclusion they did not.

During July 1944 21AG LAA Regts disbanded the third 40-mm Tp in each Bty and any 20-mm Tps. 21AG LAA Btys had their own WE issued late 1944 confirming two 40-mm Tps per Bty; Inf Div one towed and one SP, Armd Div both SP. Corps level LAA Btys, I think, followed Inf Div format.

Very late on (Feb/Mar 1945) RA LAA Btys had a new WE proposed, with two Tps, each of four 40-mm guns and four quad Maxson mounts. Again I don't know if this was adopted, the quad .50-cals had to come from US sources, and it was very late in the campaign. The RCA LAA WEs I have follow the British layout (ref II/180/2 and III/12A/3 of 23Mar1944 and II/180A/1 and III/12B/1 of 12Sep1944, the latter republished Aug1945). No mention of 20-mm guns outside of the 20-mm Tps of early 1944. I have one snapshot of artillery holdings in 21AG from early 1945 and that only details 40-mm and 3.7-in pieces as I recall.

Gary

Hi Gary

I was trying to summarise the WE list as found on the Trux section of WW2 along with the very few unit wartime diaries on the web, I too found it confusing. The most confusing bit was the additional 20mm gun troops, which regiments had them and when? Was the Crusader 40mm AASP used?

As for the Canadian 20mm multiple gun SPs these were the ones I was on about.http://www.mapleleafup.net/forums/showthread.php?t=6473
http://www.mapleleafup.net/forums/showt ... hp?t=15510 and http://www.anti-aircraft.co.uk/polstenquad.html