10 Myths of the WWII by Peter Hitchens

[K.Kocjancic]

https://www.dailymail.co.uk/debate/arti ... k-WW2.html

He lists these 10 "myths" of the WWII (from a British perspective):
1) We were forced into way by the Germans
2) Poland was a bastion of democracy
3) We fought to protect the Jews
4) Chamberlain was nothing but an appeaser
5) We stood alone against the Nazi Menace
6) The looming shadow of invasion
7) We can thank the 'special relationship'
8) British bombing of Germany was justified
9) Heroic Britain won the war
10) We were glorious in victory

[Andy H]

Hi

Yes he's certainly caused a storm on SM with his assertions.

Beyond the headline grabbing statements, there is large doses of reality to what he says but to be honest anybody with a modicum of real knowledge will realise that many of the myths he's trying to debunk have already been debunked my those with a passing interest in the matter. To most of the popn it won't matter one jot either way.

War, like politics is very rarely a black and white issue, but varying shades of grey.

The Allies 'won' the Axis lost, the rest is down to your perception of how, by what measure and in what context.

Regards

Andy H

[K.Kocjancic]

Hi

Yes he's certainly caused a storm on SM with his assertions.

Beyond the headline grabbing statements, there is large doses of reality to what he says but to be honest anybody with a modicum of real knowledge will realise that many of the myths he's trying to debunk have already been debunked my those with a passing interest in the matter. To most of the popn it won't matter one jot either way.

War, like politics is very rarely a black and white issue, but varying shades of grey.

The Allies 'won' the Axis lost, the rest is down to your perception of how, by what measure and in what context.

Regards

Andy H

Yes, I agree completely. Some of these "revelations" are well known, but usually nobody looks at them in this light. Like, why didn't UK do more for Poland in 1939?

KK

[Ifor]

Could you list good books/articles that would explain the realities please? Would like to read up on them.

[Andy H]

Hi

Yes he's certainly caused a storm on SM with his assertions.

Beyond the headline grabbing statements, there is large doses of reality to what he says but to be honest anybody with a modicum of real knowledge will realise that many of the myths he's trying to debunk have already been debunked my those with a passing interest in the matter. To most of the popn it won't matter one jot either way.

War, like politics is very rarely a black and white issue, but varying shades of grey.

The Allies 'won' the Axis lost, the rest is down to your perception of how, by what measure and in what context.

Regards

Andy H

Yes, I agree completely. Some of these "revelations" are well known, but usually nobody looks at them in this light. Like, why didn't UK do more for Poland in 1939?

KK

Hi KK

Such as?

Many of the 'ideas' I've heard over the years bare no comparison with the military/economic/political realities at the time. Many of these
ideas are just that, wrapped up in a modicum of facts that would disappear after first contact with the enemy or perish unless the field of
play was so unfair that it becomes prime material for a What If!

Regards

Andy H

[South]

Good afternoon Ifor,

From my perspective in re the realities, I suggest your foundation block start with:

"Decline of the West" by Oswald Spengler.

~ Bob
eastern Virginia, USA

[ljadw]

Yes, I agree completely. Some of these "revelations" are well known, but usually nobody looks at them in this light. Like, why didn't UK do more for Poland in 1939?

KK
[/quote]
1 Was there anything Britain could do for Poland before the war that Britain did not do ?
2 Was there any need for Britain to do more than it did ?
3 What most people forget is that British policy was NOT to help Poland if there was a war, but to avert war and that Britain would become an ally of Poland only if there was war .

[ljadw]

Could you list good books/articles that would explain the realities please? Would like to read up on them.

Taylor : the origins of the second world war .

[Stiltzkin]

He lists these 10 "myths" of the WWII (from a British perspective):
1) We were forced into way by the Germans
2) Poland was a bastion of democracy
3) We fought to protect the Jews
4) Chamberlain was nothing but an appeaser
5) We stood alone against the Nazi Menace
6) The looming shadow of invasion
7) We can thank the 'special relationship'
8) British bombing of Germany was justified
9) Heroic Britain won the war
10) We were glorious in victory

Well,

"1) We were forced into war by the Germans"
(Britain always pursued the stance of "equality of power", their alliances and structures did not tolerate a continent solely dominated by Germany, as this would have enabled them to expand to the seas).

"2) Poland was a bastion of democracy"
(this is mainly irrelevant, as you do not have the right to violate the sovereignty of another state in the way the Soviets and Nazis were doing, they were clearly blackmailing their neighbors, however and this is from my limited knowledge of eastern european history, it is safe to say that Poland and Hungary were older nations with traditions, comparable to France and Great Britain, Poland was indeed one of the first democracies in this vicinity, being surrounded by more autocratic societies, for "Neo-Nazis" in our country this is a popular topic to be picked up for possible attempts of justification, Polands actions in Slovakia have to be condemned but have overall little to do with Nazi-Soviet aggression).

3) We fought to protect the Jews
(The full extent of German crimes was more or less known by 1943, one of the reasons why the world was convinced that Nazism had to be eradicated, the Soviets were much better at hiding their crimes, Moscow is still able to obfuscate its intentions and actions up to this day, one of the main reasons why they could recruit more soldiers, superior propaganda).

4) Chamberlain was nothing but an appeaser
(there is one thing that clearly matters: Concessions were made, with dictators. That is all there is to say).

5) We stood alone against the Nazi Menace
(obviously Britain could only achieve victory with the help of US economy and Soviet manpower, however it invested into the RAF and that already prewar and was able to maintain an effective air fleet, Britain did not possess the manpower and economic potential to defeat the Nazis, their colonial influence was already dwindling as well)

6) The looming shadow of invasion
(Plans existed, but the German interest lay ultimately in the East, their attention was long turned there, the reason why they could not invade was simple: The existence of the Eastern Front, which consumed labour force and resources, WW2 was a war between germans and slavic people, in both world wars european nations were willing to sacrifice millions to prevent Germany from taking over).

7) We can thank the 'special relationship'
(Yes, absolutely, cultural spheres matter, indeed they still do and will continue to do so, this applies to all nations).

8) British bombing of Germany was justified
(well, that has been analyzed and there is not much else to say: Strategic bombing primarily targeted civilians, though one has to realize that in a total war, which was initiated by Hitler, one should not be surprised if things backfire, also a popular topic in the mouths of German nationalists and apologists).

9) Heroic Britain won the war
(there is nothing heroic in war, there is just slaughter and tragedy, Britain was victorious though, Britain is essential to the balance in Europe anyway, their parliamentarism always stood as a prime example).

10) We were glorious in victory
(This only appeals to nationalists anyway).

[OpanaPointer]

The Color Books are a good source of communications between the parties at the start of WWII. Scroll down to see them. http://www.ibiblio.org/pha/

[ljadw]

He lists these 10 "myths" of the WWII (from a British perspective):
1) We were forced into way by the Germans
2) Poland was a bastion of democracy
3) We fought to protect the Jews
4) Chamberlain was nothing but an appeaser
5) We stood alone against the Nazi Menace
6) The looming shadow of invasion
7) We can thank the 'special relationship'
8) British bombing of Germany was justified
9) Heroic Britain won the war
10) We were glorious in victory

Well,

"1) We were forced into war by the Germans"
(Britain always pursued the stance of "equality of power", their alliances and structures did not tolerate a continent solely dominated by Germany, as this would have enabled them to expand to the seas).

"2) Poland was a bastion of democracy"
(this is mainly irrelevant, as you do not have the right to violate the sovereignty of another state in the way the Soviets and Nazis were doing, they were clearly blackmailing their neighbors, however and this is from my limited knowledge of eastern european history, it is safe to say that Poland and Hungary were older nations with traditions, comparable to France and Great Britain, Poland was indeed one of the first democracies in this vicinity, being surrounded by more autocratic societies, for "Neo-Nazis" in our country this is a popular topic to be picked up for possible attempts of justification, Polands actions in Slovakia have to be condemned but have overall little to do with Nazi-Soviet aggression).

3) We fought to protect the Jews
(The full extent of German crimes was more or less known by 1943, one of the reasons why the world was convinced that Nazism had to be eradicated, the Soviets were much better at hiding their crimes, Moscow is still able to obfuscate its intentions and actions up to this day, one of the main reasons why they could recruit more soldiers, superior propaganda).

4) Chamberlain was nothing but an appeaser
(there is one thing that clearly matters: Concessions were made, with dictators. That is all there is to say).

5) We stood alone against the Nazi Menace
(obviously Britain could only achieve victory with the help of US economy and Soviet manpower, however it invested into the RAF and that already prewar and was able to maintain an effective air fleet, Britain did not possess the manpower and economic potential to defeat the Nazis, their colonial influence was already dwindling as well)

6) The looming shadow of invasion
(Plans existed, but the German interest lay ultimately in the East, their attention was long turned there, the reason why they could not invade was simple: The existence of the Eastern Front, which consumed labour force and resources, WW2 was a war between germans and slavic people, in both world wars european nations were willing to sacrifice millions to prevent Germany from taking over).

7) We can thank the 'special relationship'
(Yes, absolutely, cultural spheres matter, indeed they still do and will continue to do so, this applies to all nations).

8) British bombing of Germany was justified
(well, that has been analyzed and there is not much else to say: Strategic bombing primarily targeted civilians, though one has to realize that in a total war, which was initiated by Hitler, one should not be surprised if things backfire, also a popular topic in the mouths of German nationalists and apologists).

9) Heroic Britain won the war
(there is nothing heroic in war, there is just slaughter and tragedy, Britain was victorious though, Britain is essential to the balance in Europe anyway, their parliamentarism always stood as a prime example).

10) We were glorious in victory
(This only appeals to nationalists anyway).

1 Equality of power had nothing to do with the outbreak of wwii
2 One has the right to violate the sovereignty of other states : this happend before WWI, before WWII and after WWII . Besides, right is a wrong and irrelevant word .And Poland was not a democracy .
4 Britain did not make concessions .
7 Today's special relationship is the relationship between the billionaire and the beggar/ the butler .
9 Britain is not essential to the balance in Europe :there is no balance .

[Tom from Cornwall]

10. We were glorious in victory.

I don't know about 'glorious', perhaps knackered would be a better description.

Regards

Tom

[Plain Old Dave]

7) We can thank the 'special relationship'

Disingenuous at best. No less an authority than Churchill said numerous times that he became certain of German defeat in WW2 when they declared war on the US. The Second World War was won on American assembly lines. The B-24 Liberator had her problems, but was the most prolific bomber in history . That's only one example. Fogs of destroyers that served til the 70s and 80s, an Aluminum Overcast of 300,000 aircraft, and more Liberty Ships than Germany could sink.

[Stiltzkin]

1 Equality of power had nothing to do with the outbreak of wwii

Nobody said so, but it actually did, since the distribution of power did not match the political reality anymore since 1913, France and Britain were not the dominant powers in Europe anymore and totalitarian regimes emerged in Germany and Russia.

2 One has the right to violate the sovereignty of other states : this happend before WWI, before WWII and after WWII . Besides, right is a wrong and irrelevant word .And Poland was not a democracy

You joking right? So someone has a right to break into your house and steal from you without repercussions? Maybe in a failed state. Whether Poland was a democracy is unpertinent and had little to do with Soviet and Nazi intentions, the same applied to the Baltics, parts of China, Bessarabia and Finland. You need at least a ratification or mandate by the UN, (causa) humanitarian missions or interventions against genocide. They took territory by force, aggression. Russia still does up to this day. The 20th century was an age of politically motivated murder, incited by these regimes, unprecedented (since the middle ages maybe). How anyone can still defend or try to whitewash Nazi or Soviet crimes with the knowledge that exists today, is beyond my comprehension.
The statement "Poland and the Baltics were no democracies and should have handed over the corridor" is emphasized by Russians and nationalist Germans alike, a very dangerous game, possible consequences would be a schism of the European Union, if one would pursue this narrative.

4 Britain did not make concessions .

Chamberlain traded with territory in order to appease. The situation is clear, before anyone should try to "rehabilitate" him. That does not make him a Nazi sympathizer, but a "Realpolitiker" like Bismarck.

7 Today's special relationship is the relationship between the billionaire and the beggar/ the butler .

I would not go that far.

9 Britain is not essential to the balance in Europe :there is no balance .

Then you should educate yourself on European history, after two world wars, the foundation of the EU and NATO, no new wars emerged. Muslim and Orthodox borders are the "hotzones" right now. Britain is very important to European politics, roughly 15% of EU GDP (market rates). There is at least peace, since Germany is enchained by the Euro. This is however threatened lately by (nationalist) French ambitions, which are disguised as general European interests (Macron).
http://appsso.eurostat.ec.europa.eu/nui ... .%23%23%23

The Second World War was won on American assembly lines.

WW2 was won with the blood of the slavic soldier. WW1 by the french soldier. Soviet horse drawn rifle divisions decided WW2 and not Liberators, they certainly played their role in the strategic war effort (the american economy tipped the economic balance) and certainly more in the pacific, but for the EF it is clear: Demographics.

[OpanaPointer]

7) We can thank the 'special relationship'

Disingenuous at best. No less an authority than Churchill said numerous times that he became certain of German defeat in WW2 when they declared war on the US. The Second World War was won on American assembly lines. The B-24 Liberator had her problems, but was the most prolific bomber in history . That's only one example. Fogs of destroyers that served til the 70s and 80s, an Aluminum Overcast of 300,000 aircraft, and more Liberty Ships than Germany could sink.

Churchill's personal plane, "Commando", was a B-24.