British LAA Battery

[yantaylor]

Hi everyone, just a quick request.
Does anyone know of a site in which to find the TO/E of a British LAA battery?
My dad served on Bofors guns in Europe 1944/45 and after the war until 1958.
He ended up being a WO II which would mean he was the Sgt Maj of the battery.
I just want to know what his role was and what the battery contained in regards to command and even supply.

Thanks
Yan.

[Sheldrake]

Hi everyone, just a quick request.
Does anyone know of a site in which to find the TO/E of a British LAA battery?
My dad served on Bofors guns in Europe 1944/45 and after the war until 1958.
He ended up being a WO II which would mean he was the Sgt Maj of the battery.
I just want to know what his role was and what the battery contained in regards to command and even supply.

Thanks
Yan.

There were several T&OE
This lin k on Trux's pages has several from Nov 1943 http://ww2talk.com/index.php?threads/li ... ery.23773/
If you tot up the numbers a light AA Battery is a big organisation with 18 x 40mm guns, twelve officers and 250+ all ranks. This will give you the structure and roles. During 1944 Light AA was restructured to extract manpower to be retrained as infantrymen.

However, there would still be a battery sergeant major and he would still nominally be assigned a motorcycle as a vehicle.

The BSM -a warrant officer class 2 (BSM) was the senior soldier in the battery and responsible for Administration and disciplinary matters. (G1) In the field the BSM was also responsible for ammunition supply under the direction of the Battery Captain (BK).

He is in many ways the alpha male of the 250 soldiers in the battery. Part foreman - part playground bully - part trade unionist he was the practical psychologist who understood what made the soldiers tick. The officers may have the Kings commission, but he had the respect and authority of the soldiers. It is a foolish or brave Battery commander who ignores the advice of his BSM.

Whatever your father's p[ersonaility or intellect, he had to have been a bit of these things to do his job.

I hope this helps

[yantaylor]

Thanks Sheldrake
Nice to hear from you and thanks for the link.
Yan.

[yantaylor]

Could I please ask you chaps a few questions regarding the ranks in this battery?

Now I have read that the RA used the rank of ‘Gunner’ instead of Private, so would these ‘tradesmen’ be known as ‘Gunners’ too?

Would I be right in naming all these men as Gunners except for the attached troops like corporals and cooks and signalmen etc?
I Would guess that the signalers be from RASC and the electricians and mechanics from REME plus the cooks from RACC.

Talking about signals, the battery seems low on radio operators, with one at BHQ and one in each troop, but I am sure that the BHQ has two trucks carrying radios, which would allow for two radio opps.

Would every man in this battery, be armed with a SMLE rifle? I know that officers would have revolvers so I will omit them, but how about the NCOs, motorcycles riders and truck drivers, would these have Sten SMGs.

By the way, what does ‘IC’ stand for?

Cheers
Yan.

[Sheldrake]

Re Tradesmen. It is complicated. This is from Nigel Evans's site.

The Establishment listed the numbers of officers and soldiers by ranks and 'skills' in each type of regiment and its batteries. Soldiers were divided into 'Tradesmen' and 'Non-Tradesman'. The former received higher pay and some of the latter were designated as 'specialists'. Some ranks were reserved for tradesmen and non-tradesmen in particular positions, for example a field regiment's 24 gun and 3 signal sergeants. However, most ranks were available as a 'pool' that could be assigned to any individual, although some were reserved for 'tradesmen'. Assigning these ranks to individuals was a matter for each regiment. For example a 1944 field regiment had 358 'non-tradesmen' Gunners, of whom 35 could be Lance Bombardiers, although any of the 35 could be assigned to tradesmen. Similarly with the 63 Bombardiers, of whom 15 could be Lance Sergeants. The 73 tradesmen also had 13 NCO positions from Lance Bombardier to Staff Sergeant reserved for them.

As the war progressed there were changes in soldier trades. ................The various types of signallers and drivers became either 'driver', 'batman-driver', 'signaller', 'driver-operator' or 'driver-mechanic'. The first three being 'non-tradesmen' and the other two 'tradesmen'.

http://nigelef.tripod.com/RAorg.htm

Why do you think the battery is low on radio operators? War Establishment III/171/2. December1943 has eight driver operators

For personal weapons you need the detailed G1098 establishment.

[Alanmccoubrey]

Yan, all "privates" in the Royal Artillery are/were called Gunners regardless of their trade/skill/training or lack thereof.

Signallers in an RA unit would normally be Gunners with additional training, other than the ocassional specialist from the Royal Corps of Signals, the RASC was the Royal Army Service Corps by the way, and they would normally be noted as such in the WE as "Attached". The link below gives a good idea of what I mean, I prefer this site to the one already linked, for no particular reason, just a personal thing.

http://ww2talk.com/index.php?threads/an ... ery.23775/

IC usually means "In Charge".

[Gary Kennedy]

Yan, I take it the you were able to download the scans OK in the end?

Individual weapons for the LAA Regt were by 1943 issued as;

Pistols - all Officers
Stens - all WOs, drivers of motorcycles and vehicles and spare drivers
Rifles - remainder (except firers of single LMGs); but not to exceed 200% of scales prior to 23rd June 1942, balance, if any, Stens

Now you know that last bit could only have been written by the British Army...

Wireless (from the Royals Sigs pocket book, part II - 1945)

Non-Divisional LAA Regt, two No.22 sets (in 15-cwt truck) per Bty HQ and two more at RHQ. Also two R109 sets per Tp.
Div LAA Regt, same as non- Div when in an Inf Div, while Armd Div adds one No.22 set per Tp HQ.

Note that the LAA Regts in 21AG were slightly different, using 21AG WEs for the reduction to two Tps per Bty. Also wireless issue depended on whether the guns were on trucks or towed.

AFG.1098 tables would indeed give all the information on the number of small arms, wireless sets, ammn by type and every other thing I'd be interested to find, sadly it appears they all went in the bin at the end of the war. I've got one for the Inf Bn, arguably the most important, and have never seen another nor got a sniff as to where they might reside.

And opinion is divided on i/c with reference to drivers. I've seen it stated as Driver, in charge, and likewise been told it's an anachronism for driver (internal combustion), to differentiate between horse drawn and motor vehicle drivers when the Army first became motorised.

Gary

[yantaylor]

Thanks everyone for the contributions, they are a great help.

I am feeling my way through the scans Gary, as I am trying to get the right table which would cover a LAA in a Infantry Division and another for an Armoured Division circa June 44.

I would guess that the two R109 sets would be in the two 5cwt 4x4 cars which would be operated by the Gunner/drivers.
I think that I read the Dec 1943 scan wrong Gary as it says attached; R. Signals-Electrician (Signals) (b) and I mistakenly thought it was an operator from the RSC.
Would all the mechanics and the electricians be organic to the regiment and not from REME?

Thank you all again
Yan

[yantaylor]

Here is my dad with his gun crew, he is the bloke on the extreme right, there is some dispute among the family to where this photo was taken, one says the Orkney's, but it may be Luss in Scotland, but another says it may be in the Midlands, but we don't really know.

[Gary Kennedy]

The attached (non-RA) personnel are all identified in the WE. For the Btys that's largely cooks of the ACC while RHQ added the Medical Officer. The other attachments to the Regt were a LAA Workshop (REME) and a Signal Section (R Sigs). The latter was provided largely for maintenance of equipment, one instrument mechanic, later radio mechanic, per Bty and for RHQ, and also the rear link vehicle, another 15-cwt and No.22 set that was manned by the R Sigs pers (the driver-operators in the Btys were RA pers).

The same basic WE was used by both Inf and Armd Divs, you have to look at the notes section at the back to see the differences in pers and transport dependent upon its role. The 1946 one I sent includes all the amendments made along the way to the Dec43 issue.

Gary

[Clive Mortimore]

Could I please ask you chaps a few questions regarding the ranks in this battery?

Now I have read that the RA used the rank of ‘Gunner’ instead of Private, so would these ‘tradesmen’ be known as ‘Gunners’ too?

Would I be right in naming all these men as Gunners except for the attached troops like corporals and cooks and signalmen etc?
I Would guess that the signalers be from RASC and the electricians and mechanics from REME plus the cooks from RACC.

Talking about signals, the battery seems low on radio operators, with one at BHQ and one in each troop, but I am sure that the BHQ has two trucks carrying radios, which would allow for two radio opps.

Would every man in this battery, be armed with a SMLE rifle? I know that officers would have revolvers so I will omit them, but how about the NCOs, motorcycles riders and truck drivers, would these have Sten SMGs.

By the way, what does ‘IC’ stand for?

Cheers
Yan.

Hi Yan

IC has two meanings.

IC can mean in command as in 2IC, second in command

OR

IC means internal combustion as in Driver IC, the British army still had mule drivers in artillery mountain regiments and in RASC mule companies therefore drivers of motor vehicles were known as driver internal combustion not as often stated by very knowledgeable sources driver in charge.

[yantaylor]

Thanks again Clive, trust us Brits to confuse the issue.

Ian