What gun is this?

[Urmel]

The IWM picture caption states it's a 40mm Bofors, which it clearly isn't. Picture taken outside Derna on 1 Feb 41. I'm wondering if it could be a 60lb or a 4.5" Mk. I, belonging to 211 Battery, 64th Medium Regiment, R.A.

[Tom from Cornwall]

Hi Urmel,

This is from WO169/1492 - 64 Medium Regt war diary:

1 February 1941 MARTUBA Area
1000 Orders received at R.H.Q. from C.R.A. Martuba summoning Recce parties to Unit Commanders’ conference at Point 451 near Gun position.
1145 Major Hunt returned from recce party to lead in main body of the regiment to an area about 10 miles S.E. of GIOVANNI BERTA.
1210 R.H.Q. and B.H.Q. groups left, followed by gun groups.
1315 Arrived in new position. [GIOVANNI BERTA area]
1415 Guns, “A” and “B” Troops reported ready to fire. C.O. and O.C. 211 Battery moved forward in wireless truck on recce of forward areas and to observe fire.
1600 Both troops fired (from the map) at centre portion of GIOVANNI BERTA 3 rounds gunfire, followed immediately by another 3 rounds gunfire. O.P. reported large columns of smoke observed rising from town.
1803 Programme shoot (ordered by C.R.A.) of 5 rounds gunfire carried out again on GIOVANNI BERTA.
Infantry (6th Australian Div) reported closing in on GIOVANNI BERTA from south and east.
2130 “B” Troop ordered to move at 0630 hours to a position about 5 miles WEST to fire on predicted targets, covering infantry advance up main road north towards GIOVANNI BERTA. C.O. would advance with infantry in Armoured O.P. and call for fire as and when necessary.

Regards

Tom

[yantaylor]

Hello Urmel, it very much looks like a 60 pdr as the 4.5in Mk.1 looks similar to the 5.5in.

Yan.

[MarkN]

The IWM picture caption states it's a 40mm Bofors, which it clearly isn't. Picture taken outside Derna on 1 Feb 41. I'm wondering if it could be a 60lb or a 4.5" Mk. I, belonging to 211 Battery, 64th Medium Regiment, R.A.

Given the caption is wrong about the gun type, perhaps we should also disregard the information on place and date too. Compare and contrast...

https://www.awm.gov.au/collection/C27449
Derna, Libya. THE BRITISH 4/5'S IN ACTION AT DERNA. (NEGATIVE BY D. PARER).


https://www.awm.gov.au/collection/C27433
Derna, Libya. BRITISH BATTERY OF 4/5'S IN ACTION AT DERNA.

[Urmel]

Thanks all!

[Urmel]

Hi Urmel,

This is from WO169/1492 - 64 Medium Regt war diary:

1 February 1941 MARTUBA Area
1000 Orders received at R.H.Q. from C.R.A. Martuba summoning Recce parties to Unit Commanders’ conference at Point 451 near Gun position.
1145 Major Hunt returned from recce party to lead in main body of the regiment to an area about 10 miles S.E. of GIOVANNI BERTA.
1210 R.H.Q. and B.H.Q. groups left, followed by gun groups.
1315 Arrived in new position. [GIOVANNI BERTA area]
1415 Guns, “A” and “B” Troops reported ready to fire. C.O. and O.C. 211 Battery moved forward in wireless truck on recce of forward areas and to observe fire.
1600 Both troops fired (from the map) at centre portion of GIOVANNI BERTA 3 rounds gunfire, followed immediately by another 3 rounds gunfire. O.P. reported large columns of smoke observed rising from town.
1803 Programme shoot (ordered by C.R.A.) of 5 rounds gunfire carried out again on GIOVANNI BERTA.
Infantry (6th Australian Div) reported closing in on GIOVANNI BERTA from south and east.
2130 “B” Troop ordered to move at 0630 hours to a position about 5 miles WEST to fire on predicted targets, covering infantry advance up main road north towards GIOVANNI BERTA. C.O. would advance with infantry in Armoured O.P. and call for fire as and when necessary.

Regards

Tom

Do you have the entry for 30/31 January by any chance?

[Tom from Cornwall]

Hi,

Same source:

29 January 1941 FORT SOLARIO [sic]
0130 Orders received by signal for Regimental and Battery Recce groups to proceed today to Kilo 61 (Advanced Corps H.Q.) on DERNA road.
0915 Recce Groups left for rendezvous. RHQ Recce Group consisted of C.O. Major Hunt, Signals Officer, Survey Officer and wireless trucks.
1800 Remaining guns with unexpended rounds just returned from Ordnance fired into sea.

30 January 1941 FORT SOLARIO [sic]
1100 Received orders by signal to move at 0700 hours tomorrow to MARTUBA area behind TORO (51st Field Regt R.A.). Time of starting for own unit arranged by liaison with TORO to be 0800 hrs. Warning Order issued to the Battery and vehicles fully packed.
1500 Major Hunt returned from Recce Group and advanced the time of starting by one hour.
Spare A.E.C. originally borrowed from 212 Med Battery R.A. despatched back to MENA.

31 January 1941 FORT SOLARIO [sic]
0700 Main body of unit moved to MARTUBA via FORT SOLARIO, outskirts of TOBRUCK, and then straight down main road towards DERNA.
Going was slow because of excessive traffic, which was quite uncontrolled, but the regiment eventually arrived at the new position which was already partially surveyed in and prepared
1700 by the Recce Group.
The L.A.D. were lightly delayed by having to tow TOC truck (Armoured O.P.) of 211 Battery, but the complete unit was safely established shortly after dark. Tactical situation is obscure, but the unit’s role appears to be to remain in reserve until the situation becomes clearer.
News received on arrival that DERNA has fallen.

Hope that helps.

Regards

Tom

[Urmel]

Thanks. I have now found a picture showing a 7.2" howitzer in action at Bardia, 30 December 1940. The canopy looks very similar to the one in the original picture.

Does anyone know which unit fielded 7.2" howitzers in the WD in 1940, and what happened to them? Because by the time of CRUSADER they are gone. Lost in greece?

[MarkN]

Thanks. I have now found a picture showing a 7.2" howitzer in action at Bardia, 30 December 1940. The canopy looks very similar to the one in the original picture.

Indeed there is. But once again, be wary of the caption's accuracy.

Another compare and contrast for you.

https://www.awm.gov.au/collection/C27082
NEAR BARDIA - ONE OF THE GUNS AND CREW OF THE 28TH MEDIUM REGIMENT. 234 BATTERY, ROYAL ARTILLERY (D TROOP) - A BRITISH UNIT WHICH ASSISTED THE AUSTRALIAN ARTILLERY IN THE BATTLE OF BARDIA. (NEGATIVE BY F. HURLEY).


https://www.awm.gov.au/collection/C27083
NEAR BARDIA - ONE OF THE GUNS AND CREW OF THE 28TH MEDIUM REGIMENT. 234 BATTERY, ROYAL ARTILLERY (D TROOP) - A BRITISH UNIT WHICH ASSISTED THE AUSTRALIAN ARTILLERY IN THE BATTLE OF BARDIA. (NEGATIVE BY F. HURLEY).


Here's the IWM piccie claiming a 7.2-inch howitzer in the same place at the same time.

https://www.iwmprints.org.uk/image/7431 ... ember-1940


Now, when comparing and contrasting, having a careful look at the clothing and how the 'fighting' troops look. Do the IWM images look a little staged to you? Whereas the AWM images look like a bunch of scuffs fighting the cold as well as the Eyeties...

[Urmel]

Okay. More confusion. That should be 68th, not 28th. And according to JonS 234 Battery had 4.5” Howitzers... viewtopic.php?t=122548

[MarkN]

Okay. More confusion. That should be 68th, not 28th. And according to JonS 234 Battery had 4.5” Howitzers... viewtopic.php?t=122548

I am making no comment on the gun type. I can tell the difference between a 2-pdr and a 3.7-inch HAA gun, but below that I haven't bothered to learn to identify what's what from a picture.

However, it does look to me that the AWM pictures are all of the same type of guns and probably from the very same unit. And, I know that the 234th Battery certainly did accompany the 6th Australian Division.

A document I have shows the 234th Battery with 4.5-inch guns not howitzers. Whereas the same document indicates an Australian battery having 4.5-inch howitzers. Strange that the AWM should hold pictures of a British unit rather than an Australian one.

I suspect the 28th comes from confusion that the 27/28th Battery accompanied them across Cyrenaica. They possessed 6-inch howitzers.

The IWM pictures seem to be taken in a completly different climate. Some of the gun crew are even standing to attention! I think they're staged.

Here's another for you.

https://www.awm.gov.au/collection/C42235
A battery of 4.5 inch or possibly 60 pounder field guns from an unidentified British medium artillery unit, in action at Derna.

[Urmel]

I give up, especially since nobody seems able to say what kind of gun we are looking at.

[Sheldrake]

My first thought is that these are 60 pounder Mk II Guns on Mk IVP carriages,l but now I am not so sure.

25/26 Battery of 7 Medium Regiment was equipped with 60 pounders - but Farndale's "Years of Defeat" states that in 1940 these had iron tyred wooden wheels which restricted their mobility. Photograph 30 dated September 1940 which shows a 60 pounder in Egypt with wooden wheels - whcih has to be 25/26 Bty as they were the only unit so equipped in theatre. Photo 35 is a photo of 2/12 Australian battery in Tobruk in May 1941 showing similar guns - which 2/12 had been issued in Tobruck. Where did the wooden wheeled 60 pounders in the western desert in May 1941 come from - maybe these were ex 25/26 battery as there were reported problems with cracked carriages.

211 Battery of 64 Medium regiment was in theatre on 1st Feb 1941. According to Farndale (p104) 211 Bty was equipped with 4.5" guns Mk 1 - which were mounted on the 60 Pounder carriage MkIV p. Farndale photograph 35 is the same image as in post #11 attributed AWM - but captioned "60 pdr battery at Derna" and attributed IWM.

Could be either but 211 bty with Mk 1 4.5" Guns seems more likely IMHO

( I suspect IWM and AWM are drawing from the same set of photos but the AWM preferred the scruffy images.)

[yantaylor]

Just looking at these photos, shows me that these guns are not 4.5in guns, which points to them being 60 pdrs.

[Sheldrake]

Just looking at these photos, shows me that these guns are not 4.5in guns, which points to them being 60 pdrs.

Jan,

It is tricker.

The top picture is of a 60pdr MK II 1938 which is mounted on a Mk IV P carriage - the P standing for pneumatic. The 4.5" BL Gun in the Desert is a Mk II because it is mounted on the new carriage designed for the 4.5" and 5.5" guns - it has the distinctive "horns."

The 4.5" Mk 1 was mounted on a 60 Pounder carriage as an expediency - and looked a lot like the 60pdr Mk II on a Mk IVP carriage. The 4.5" Gun had a slightly longer barrel 15 ft 9 in (4.8 m) v 15 ft 4 in (4.67 m) and narrower bore 4.5" (114mm) v 5"(127mm) than the 60 pounder. Without a tape measure and a close look at the barrel it is quite difficult to tell the two apart.