1st London Division and Seelöwe/Sea Lion

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Huszar666
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1st London Division and Seelöwe/Sea Lion

#1

Post by Huszar666 » 18 Dec 2021, 16:28

Morning, everyone.

I'm currently trying to make a complete OOB of the beach defenses and reserves available in Mid-September for the UK - at least in Kent.
I did find stuff about the 2nd NZ and the 45th Infantry (mostly thanks to AHF 8-) ), and the coastal batteries between Dover and Brighton, however, for the 1st London the situation is a bit let's say "foggy".
What I have found (thx to AHF):
Frontage is between Sheerness and Dymchurch Redoubt
Troops:
Div HQ with 2/5 Queens in Ashford
1st Kensingtons:
- HQ with B and C Companies west of Ashford (Hothfield Place)
- A Company: Isle of Sheppey
- D Company: around Margate-Ramsgate and Deal
I did find some indication, that at least some part of 1st Kens was at Lympe (village and/or airfield), but no definitive unit named

1st London Bde:
With 8th RF, 9th RF, 1st LIR and ATG-Coy somewhere in the North.
At least 90th Field Rgt RA (8x75mm, 4x18/25pdr, 8x4,5") was stationed at Petham (but also St. Nicholas is mentioned)

2nd London Bde:
With 1st Queen's, 1st LRB, 1st LSC and ATG-Coy in the South.
Bde HQ probably in the Postling-Lyminge area.
1 Coy of 1st LRB was tasked with holding RAF Hawkinge with the "mobile column" to retake it, should it fall. I would assume, the Battalion was somewhere in the Lyminge-Densole-Folkstone area. Correct?
I have not found any mention, where 1st LSC and 1st Queen's were.
I remember one Field Company RE (501st) at Sandling.
64th Fld Rgt RA (2x75mm, 4x18/25pdr, 8x4,5") is mentioned at Acrise Place (but also Richborough is mentioned)

35th Bde:
With 2/6th and 2/7th Queen's and probably an ATG-Coy.
No mention at all, where the Bde was - I would think in the East somewhere between Margate/Ramsgate and Dover, but this is just a guess.

198th Bde:
While technicly not part of 1st London Div, and theoreticly a rapid-response counter-attack forde, it is mostly mention with the Divsion, so I put it here.
It had 6th Bord, 7th Bord, 8th King's, and ATG-Coy. No mention at all where the Bde was, I would put it somewhere in the West (maybe Isle of Sheppey with A/1st Kens?)

As for the rest:
- 67th AT-Rgt, RA: No mention at all

- 113rd Fld Rgt, RA: 16x75mm, 4x4,5" should "defend the coast", as far as I found information: 10x75mm at St. Nicholas, 3x75mm+4x4,5" at Tunstall, 3x75mm on Isle of Sheppey. I also found Whitstable mentioned (only 2x18pdr + 4x4,5", so probably at an earlier date). From the location in the Margate-Ramsgate area I would guess, maybe with the "missing" 35th Bde?

- 115th Fld Rgt, RA: HQ probably at Ashford, had an assortment of different 3pdr, 6pdr, 12pdr and 4"-guns mounted on lorries, and was scattered all around Kent. No number of guns or locations known to me.

- 8x75mm from 64th and 90th Fld Rgt, RA sited between Hythe and Folkstone for coastal defense

- Two Field Comapnies RE (220th and 221th) and one Park Company (563rd): no information found, I would guess one for each Bde.

- Maybe a M/C-Regiment?

Attached:
Dover Garnison (incl. St. Margaret's Bay) with:
9th Green Howards
15th (Pioneer) RF
A+F Companies 6th (HD) Buffs
No 5 Commando
1 Company Home Guards
50th (Holding) RWK
3rd (Training) IG
5th (Training) Fld Rgt, RA (with 9 unknown guns and 1x4,5")
34th (Training) Signal Rgt, RA

Deal:
Royal Marines. No further information

Shorncliffe:
5th Stevedore (Holding) Btl, RE: HQ in Saltwood, 17th Coy in Dymchurch Reboubt, at Botholp' Bridge and RAF Lympne, and either one or two Coy at the beaches in Front of Hythe and one or two Coy at Saltwood Castle.
No 4 Docks Group (about 1500 all ranks) between Hospital Hill (east of Hythe above the end of the RMC) and Copt Point
1 Company Home Guard in Hythe, probably another one in Folkstone
Small Arms School, Hythe: had 138 all ranks, including 67 instructors. Most probably had some students also, I guess about 200-250

Airfields:
Hawkinge had 1 Coy 6th (HD) Buffs, I would wager, Lympe also had one, which would mean, at least two other companies were somewhere else (RAF Manston? Ramsgate?)

There were some Superheavies confirmed between Dover and Ashford, and probably also a Medium Rgt and some Heavy Batteries. No information about those.

That's about all I found on the 1st London.

In contrast to the 45th Div, it looks like the 1st London utilised a collection of Trainig, Holding, etc Btls for coast defence, but the known units only reach till Deal. What about the area around Ramsgate/Margate, the northern coast and Isle of Sheppey? Deal to Sheerness is about 80km, even if we assume around 15km/Btl we would need 5-6 Battalions.

Has anyone further information?

Thanks!

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Re: 1st London Division and Seelöwe/Sea Lion

#2

Post by Gooner1 » 20 Dec 2021, 16:19

The David Newbold thesis 'British planning and preparations to resist invasion on land, September 1939 - September 1940.' https://kclpure.kcl.ac.uk/portal/en/the ... 61bb).html
says of the situation in early July:

"... 1st London Division, which had received the addition of 196th Brigade from 66th (Lancs. and Border) Division at the end of June, and 35th Brigade from 12th (Eastern) Division on 10th July, and thus now consisted of four brigades, was lucky enough to be able to hold a reasonably sized local reserve. This consisted of no less than two infantry brigades, 1st London Brigade just east of Canterbury and 2nd London Brigade to the north of Folkestone and Hythe, both having been made fully mobile for a counterattacking role, mainly by the use of requisitioned civilian lorries, vans and coaches. The actual coastline in 1st London Division's sector was held in mid-July by 35th Brigade in the Isle of Sheppey-Whitstable area, 198th Brigade on and around the Isle of Thanet, some 3,000 Royal Marines in the Deal garrison, various miscellaneous and training units which made up the Dover garrison which also guarded Folkestone, and the Shorncliffe garrison which had responsibility for the coastline from Sandgate to the Dymchurch redoubt. Since the 35th and 198th Brigades consisted of insufficiently trained second-line Territorial troops, the coastal 'crust' therefore, largely manned by sedentary troops, with the two better trained first-line Territorial brigades acting as the 'Leopards'."

If 1st London Division had two counter-attacking brigades then I doubt it was so in September after the New Zealand Division arrived in Kent. That would have made it four counter-attacking Brigades in 1st London Divisions area and only two defending the coast.


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Re: 1st London Division and Seelöwe/Sea Lion

#3

Post by Huszar666 » 20 Dec 2021, 19:13

Thanks!

I wondered for years, why the coast of the closest point to the continent was so sparsly defended. Even with two Bdes for counter-attack (plus the NZ after the beginning of September), a lot of training units (of not-front-combat stuff) looks a bit weak. Just my opinion.
Attached:
Dover Garnison (incl. St. Margaret's Bay) with:
9th Green Howards
Even THAT was not a front-combat unit, but a Garrison Btl.

I forgot No. 5 Indepentent Coy at Manston.

After some thought, I have some probems with this:
No 4 Docks Group (about 1500 all ranks) between Hospital Hill (east of Hythe above the end of the RMC) and Copt Point
That would mean 8-9 Companies for a sector less than 6km - so fit for, say, 4 Companies.
Is it possible, that No. 4 Dock Group had only part of its 1500 all ranks at Shorncliffe, or the 50th Stevedores were part of No 4 Dock Group's 1500 all ranks?

And since I was bored today at the office, I did some surfing (I wouldn't call it "research") on the allknowing Internet:
Any data on RAF Swingfield (5km NE for Hawkinge) and RAF Ramsgate (at Ramsgate, not to be confused with RAF Manston)? Both were smallish sattelite fields (of Hawkinge and Manston resp.), but still alive and kicking in September 1940. If we assume, Lympne had a HD-Company and some change (a platoon of RAF, a platoon of the 50th Stevedores, maybe something from the 1st Kens), that would be also valid for the other two (particulary Ramsgate, 2km from the port). Since the 6th Buffs had 6 Coy (A-F), and we have at least 3 of them in known positions (2 in Dover, 1 in Hawkinge), that would leave 3 for 4 airfields and other stuff.
The other airfields on Sheppey and around the Chatham-Maidstone area I don't even consider, they were far enough that probably other units than 1st London were responsible (the 2nd NZ, perhaps?).
The David Newbold thesis 'British planning and preparations to resist invasion on land, September 1939 - September 1940.' says of the situation in early July:
Early July to Mid September is a bit more then 2 Month, a LOT of time especially in the Summer of 1940 (not that I'm not thankfull :D I found the Newbold only this weekend, and for some strange reason, my bosses want me to work and not reading a thesis on military history on working days, but christmas is comming, so reading time).
Even the two counter-attack Bdes in July seems a bit excessive, considering the (extremly) weak Coastal Crust. Ok, north of Dover you have some nice cliffs and the Goodwyn Sands, but still...

regards

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Re: 1st London Division and Seelöwe/Sea Lion

#4

Post by Knouterer » 21 Dec 2021, 11:43

A little map overlay from a contemporary War Diary, with my additions, which clarifies the situation somewhat, I hope . The garrisons of Folkestone/Shorncliffe, Dover and Deal (sub-areas A4, A5 and A6) were not part of the 1st (London) Division but directly under XII Corps.
The NZEF was concentrated a bit further to the NW, in the Maidstone area.
Attachments
SubAreas 001.jpg
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Re: 1st London Division and Seelöwe/Sea Lion

#5

Post by Knouterer » 21 Dec 2021, 13:14

Shorncliffe Garrison (Sub-Area A.4) was commanded by Brigadier Harold St George Schomberg CBE DSO, who from 5 Nov. 1940 commanded 222nd Inf Bde. By my count, the strength of the garrison was at least 8,500, quite possibly 10,000 army personnel, a hodgepodge of units including the Small Arms School, No. 4 Docks Group, No. 5 Stevedore (Holding) Bn, No. 1 Training battalion RE, 141st Officer Cadet Training Unit (R.E., 33 Off, 296 OR, 292 cadets), 6th Field Squadron and 145th Field Park Troop R.E, just being formed, with 8 Off 54 OR in all, 163rd Officer Cadet Training Unit (Artists’ Rifles, 28 Off 550 OR), etc.
There were also 200-250 Royal Marines manning a HAA battery (7 x 3" guns)and RAF personnel at Hawkinge and Lympne, say 600 or so.
Home Guard: A and B Coy of the 8th (Cinque Ports) HG Battalion, 319 men armed with 9 M1918 BARs, 102 Ross rifles, 160 “Springfield” rifles (M1917), 4 shotguns, plus Molotov cocktails.
"The true spirit of conversation consists in building on another man's observation, not overturning it." Edward George Bulwer-Lytton

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Re: 1st London Division and Seelöwe/Sea Lion

#6

Post by Gooner1 » 21 Dec 2021, 16:54

Knouterer wrote:
21 Dec 2021, 11:43
A little map overlay from a contemporary War Diary, with my additions, which clarifies the situation somewhat, I hope . The garrisons of Folkestone/Shorncliffe, Dover and Deal (sub-areas A4, A5 and A6) were not part of the 1st (London) Division but directly under XII Corps.
The NZEF was concentrated a bit further to the NW, in the Maidstone area.
Hi Knouterer, did you ever find out the composition of the troops in the Deal Sub-area? Long stretch of coast there with pretty good beaches from a landing POV.
Files would be in the Admiralty rather than the War Office section I expect

.
Last edited by Gooner1 on 21 Dec 2021, 17:59, edited 1 time in total.

Richard Anderson
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Re: 1st London Division and Seelöwe/Sea Lion

#7

Post by Richard Anderson » 21 Dec 2021, 17:46

Knouterer wrote:
21 Dec 2021, 11:43
A little map overlay from a contemporary War Diary, with my additions, which clarifies the situation somewhat, I hope . The garrisons of Folkestone/Shorncliffe, Dover and Deal (sub-areas A4, A5 and A6) were not part of the 1st (London) Division but directly under XII Corps.
The NZEF was concentrated a bit further to the NW, in the Maidstone area.
Good to see you are still digging. Is there a date for that overlay? Somehow I had gotten the impression that 198 Brigade was in A2 and 2 London Brigade in A7, did they switch at some point?
Richard C. Anderson Jr.

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Huszar666
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Re: 1st London Division and Seelöwe/Sea Lion

#8

Post by Huszar666 » 21 Dec 2021, 20:57

Thanks, Knouterer!

(you were a major source to this day, a lot of info I have, came from you :thumbsup: )

Do I understand correctly, that all that HUGE number of training troops were there in Shorncliffe mid-September, and not only "sometimes between July and December"?
I find it quite strange, that so much training troops of dubious combat value were crammed into the sector, right next to a possibly endangered coastline (while 35th Bde was in the possibly more secure North). Did you find any reasoning for this?The question is also valid for Dover with all those other training and 3rd rate troops.

If I have a lot of training troops in a dangerzone, I would give them some definitive order (or defense sector) in case of invasion. We have the Stevedores, the Dock Group and maybe SAS-H covered, but THAT is only a small part of the whole garrison.
BTW: according to your map, Lympne and Hawkinge (and Swingfield for that matter) would be both in A2, not in A4 (Shorncliffe).

What is that inverted-S-Line east of the Corps Line?

(I know, nothing but questions)

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Re: 1st London Division and Seelöwe/Sea Lion

#9

Post by Leros87 » 21 Dec 2021, 23:53

If anyone is interested my book “We shall fight them”, available on Amazon, gives all the detail you need. This has been reviewed and updated following additional information and clarification.
Even after the fall of France the British authorities still expected the invasion to come to East Anglia and the north Kent Coast. For the Army this meant Eastern Command being the primary defender but which was hampered by the Thames splitting its area of responsibility. It was only in 1941 that a new South Eastern Command took over the Kent and Sussex areas.

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Re: 1st London Division and Seelöwe/Sea Lion

#10

Post by Gooner1 » 22 Dec 2021, 14:12

Huszar666 wrote:
18 Dec 2021, 16:28
1st London Bde:
With 8th RF, 9th RF, 1st LIR and ATG-Coy somewhere in the North.
At least 90th Field Rgt RA (8x75mm, 4x18/25pdr, 8x4,5") was stationed at Petham (but also St. Nicholas is mentioned)
From "The First Londons [8th Royal Fusiliers]", R. E. Handley

From May 10th
"Battalion H.Q. was at Glendalough, Canterbury Road, Herne; the Q.M. Stores at Northwood House, Bullockstone Road, Herne Bay; H.Q. Coy at the Priory, Eddington, Herne Bay; W Company at Mary's Country House, Sturry; X Company at Old Tree House Hoath; Y Company at Broomfield House, Broomfield; and Z Company at Avonleigh, Parsonage Road, Eddington.
<>
On August 28th Bn. H.Q. moved to Herne Bay Collegeand the Q.M. Stores changed billets with X Company at Old Tree House, Hoath, a little inland.
<>
September appeared to be a crucial month. On the 5th Divisional Intelligence warned that invasion was considered to be imminent. Instructions were circulated. All men, including those on local leave into the town were to carry live ammunition. H.Q. Company was dispersed so that at night a skeleton H.Q. slept seperately from H.Q. Two thirds of W and Z Companies slept fully clothed and equipped on the beach. Should an air raid sound during the night, then before 04.00 hours all ranks would get dressed and go back to bed; after 04.00 hours they were to remain up and Stand To. All ranks who have been up during the night must sleep at day. Defence was to take absolute priority over training
On the 8th Sept. the two beach companies (W and Z) were to man battle positions with 100% of Company strength with patrols adequately covering the entire length of coast for which they are responsible. The non-coastal companies to be able to move in ten minutes."

2nd London Bde:
With 1st Queen's, 1st LRB, 1st LSC and ATG-Coy in the South.
Bde HQ probably in the Postling-Lyminge area.
1 Coy of 1st LRB was tasked with holding RAF Hawkinge with the "mobile column" to retake it, should it fall. I would assume, the Battalion was somewhere in the Lyminge-Densole-Folkstone area. Correct?
I have not found any mention, where 1st LSC and 1st Queen's were.
I remember one Field Company RE (501st) at Sandling.
64th Fld Rgt RA (2x75mm, 4x18/25pdr, 8x4,5") is mentioned at Acrise Place (but also Richborough is mentioned)
Cont.
"Nov. 4th. The Division was relieved by the 46th Division. The 1st London Irish were transferred from the 1st London Brigade to 2nd London Brigade and the 1st Queen's Westminsters came into the 1st London Brigade.

The Battalion, now in a reserve role, responsible for the defence of the area N.W. of Deal, Dover and Folkestone, marched to new billets. Bn. H.Q Dane Court, Eastry; the Q.M. Stores Hatchett, Nonington, Y Company to Temple Ewell; W Coy to Forge Cottage, Elham; X Coy to Bewsbury Cross House, West Whitfield; Z Coy and Mortars to Acrise Place, Acrise; H.Q. Coy Signals, Transport, R.A.P., Pioneers and A/A Platoon were in Shepherdswell; the Motor Cycle Platoon at Palm Tree Public House, Eythorne and the Carrier Platoon at Eythorne House.

The Brigade was disposed with the 9th R.F. at Ickham, Wickham, Fredville and Goodnestone; 1st Queen's Westminsters at Lyminge and Saltwood; A/Tank Company at Denton; 167 Ambulance at Barham and the A.D.S at Etchinghill."

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Re: 1st London Division and Seelöwe/Sea Lion

#11

Post by Gooner1 » 22 Dec 2021, 15:42

Huszar666 wrote:
21 Dec 2021, 20:57
Thanks, Knouterer!

(you were a major source to this day, a lot of info I have, came from you :thumbsup: )

Do I understand correctly, that all that HUGE number of training troops were there in Shorncliffe mid-September, and not only "sometimes between July and December"?
I find it quite strange, that so much training troops of dubious combat value were crammed into the sector, right next to a possibly endangered coastline (while 35th Bde was in the possibly more secure North). Did you find any reasoning for this?The question is also valid for Dover with all those other training and 3rd rate troops.
Of variable quality I would say. Certainly the instructors, staff and trainees of the Small Arms School and the members of the Artist's Rifles Officer Cadet Training Unit were likely to be very high quality military manpower, the Stevedores of the Docks Group maybe not so much.
As to why training troops were there - they had to be somewhere, the British Army in the UK had increased by 10 fold or so since August 1939, with far less increase in the training infrastructure, so the British were making full use of the facilities they had, such as the large Shorncliffe Camp.
If I have a lot of training troops in a dangerzone, I would give them some definitive order (or defense sector) in case of invasion. We have the Stevedores, the Dock Group and maybe SAS-H covered, but THAT is only a small part of the whole garrison.
I expect their orders in event of invasion were probably not much more detailed than go to your battle positions and resist to the last man and the last round. The more complex counter-attack stuff probably being left to infantry battalions positioned not so far away.
Though I dare say they would have had an anti-parachute troops role - everyone else did!

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Re: 1st London Division and Seelöwe/Sea Lion

#12

Post by Huszar666 » 22 Dec 2021, 20:05

Thanks!

That at least clears up 8.RF (and 1st London Bde) a bit. According to the Map of Knouterer Section A1 should be responsible for the coast from Reculver (including or excluding) to about Faversham. With the concentration of 8.RF I would assume, the Btl was responsible for the right flank form REculver to about Herne Bay Pier with two Coys on the beach (5-6km, give or take). That would leave the other two Btls (with about the same disposition and frontage) for
1, Herne Bay Pier to the Eastern end of Withstable (give or take)
2, Eastern End of Whitstable to Seasalter (give or take)
Which Btl had which?
(Seasalter to Faversham probably undefended, since "behind" Sheppey.
The Battalion, now in a reserve role, responsible for the defence of the area N.W. of Deal, Dover and Folkestone, marched to new billets...
THAT looks somewhat like 8.RF took over the place of two (or even three) Btls. One in the Eastry-Shephardswell-Whitfield area, and the other around Elham-Acrise Place. The last one would be 1. LRB (including Hawking, since at that time HD and other Btl took over the defense of airfields). Acrise Place was the place (bad pun), where the Artillery of 2nd London Bde was posted in September.
May I assume, that at least one (possibly both of the "missing") Btl(s) of 2nd London Bde occupied the former area?
(IF the 2nd London Bde functioned as a rapid-response-force for section A2 in September, "I" would place one Btl around the Corps Line (i.e. Whitfeld-Tempe Ewell-Shephardswell) and the thrid one further north, maybe in the triangle Eastry-Nonington-Eythorne. I do not have a military background, but still...)

One question aswered, three new posted. I'm sure, there is some saying about that :D

regards

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Re: 1st London Division and Seelöwe/Sea Lion

#13

Post by Richard Anderson » 22 Dec 2021, 20:50

Gooner1 wrote:
22 Dec 2021, 15:42
Of variable quality I would say. Certainly the instructors, staff and trainees of the Small Arms School and the members of the Artist's Rifles Officer Cadet Training Unit were likely to be very high quality military manpower, the Stevedores of the Docks Group maybe not so much.
As to why training troops were there - they had to be somewhere, the British Army in the UK had increased by 10 fold or so since August 1939, with far less increase in the training infrastructure, so the British were making full use of the facilities they had, such as the large Shorncliffe Camp.
Exactly. The manpower expanded more rapidly than equipment holdings, which was also a factor, relieved in part in July-August by the arrival of large stocks of American small arms and ammunition.

However, fundamentally in terms of training, the duplicate "second line" TA battalions (typically 6th and 7th Battalions) of the regiments were embodied at the same time as the "first line" TA battalions and had exactly the same training, albeit fewer served in the French Campaign. The "hostilities only" Home Defence (aka Home Service) battalions (typically numbered as the 8th and above) were also embodied soon after the declaration of war (by November 1939 IIRC) and were comprised of older and less fit Great War veterans, but were not LDV.

AIUI, during the winter of 1939/1940, the Home Service battalions, which had attracted a large number of young recruits who could not serve in the field forces, were regulated by splitting off those younger men into "Young Soldiers Battalions" (typically numbered as the 70th Battalion) with officers and NCOs comprised of veterans. Later in the war many of the 70th Battalions were renumbered again, adding to the confusion.

The Royal Engineer "Stevedore" battalions are somewhat mysterious at this time and often appear with the appellation "Holding", which also appears for various infantry units. Some of the personnel indeed appear to have been recruited from dockyard stevedores, but others were simply men recruited into the RE, but not yet assigned to a field unit. No. 5 Stevedore (Holding) Bn may have been bivouacked at the Folkestone Race Course, which was used as a training site, so again most of this manpower were simply excess to regular establishment.

Fundamentally, there is little to indicate that any of these units were markedly inferior to any of the other TA units in existence then.
I expect their orders in event of invasion were probably not much more detailed than go to your battle positions and resist to the last man and the last round. The more complex counter-attack stuff probably being left to infantry battalions positioned not so far away.
Though I dare say they would have had an anti-parachute troops role - everyone else did!
I suspect the standing orders for all units when not directly engaged in training were similar to that given to the 8th RF you quoted. The 8,500-10,000 men in Sub-Area A.4 would have been in prepared positions, behind extensive barbed-wire entanglements, and initially at 0600 facing an enemy numbering around 1,300 men approaching in plywood boats and rubber rafts, equipped with rifles and light machine guns. In theory that enemy would be built up to a strength of 4,000-5,000, still without heavy weapons (albeit with whatever parts of the Tauchpanzer got ashore...except they would be on the wrong side of the RMC) by 0800.
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Re: 1st London Division and Seelöwe/Sea Lion

#14

Post by Knouterer » 23 Dec 2021, 10:40

Huszar666 wrote:
21 Dec 2021, 20:57
Thanks, Knouterer!

(you were a major source to this day, a lot of info I have, came from you :thumbsup: )

Do I understand correctly, that all that HUGE number of training troops were there in Shorncliffe mid-September, and not only "sometimes between July and December"?
I find it quite strange, that so much training troops of dubious combat value were crammed into the sector, right next to a possibly endangered coastline (while 35th Bde was in the possibly more secure North). Did you find any reasoning for this?The question is also valid for Dover with all those other training and 3rd rate troops.
Those were indeed the troops present there by the last week of September 1940, as far as I have been able to find out.
The 6th Cavalry Training Regiment, formerly at Maidstone, was also at Shorncliffe in August and early Sept. At the time such CTRs normally consisted, it seems, of 1 mounted squadron plus 3 on trucks, plus a MMG platoon with 4 Vickers guns. The presence of this Regt. there is mentioned a few times in WO 166/1214 (Home Counties). WO 73/146 (Strength of the British Army as of 30.9.1940) however lists this unit as being at Ollerton at that time, with a strength of 44 Off 908 ORs, but mentions a “Royal Fusiliers detachment” (232 men) “attached horsed Cavalry Training Regt” still at Shorncliffe.

There were other odds and ends at Shorncliffe too, such as the School of Military Administration, the R.A.M.C. Records and Pay Office, the Army School of Education and the Depot Army Educational Corps, but most of those were moved inland somewhere as invasion scares and aerial battles raging overhead caused too much disruption. The Small Arms School too was moved to Bisley in November.
"The true spirit of conversation consists in building on another man's observation, not overturning it." Edward George Bulwer-Lytton

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Re: 1st London Division and Seelöwe/Sea Lion

#15

Post by Knouterer » 23 Dec 2021, 10:50

From a War Office publication: „The Second World War 1939-1945 – Army – Transportation“ (page 21):

“… the organization of docks operating units was remodelled in June, 1940. Docks sections and stevedore battalions were abolished as separate units, and the normal organization of a docks group became a H.Q., four or more docks operating companies, and one docks maintenance company. The new Docks Operating Company consisted of four sections, each with the necessary proportion of stevedores, and each designed to work eight hatches for two shifts a day, with a third shift for general supervision of quay clearance. The Docks Maintenance Company was designed to operate and maintain dock cranes and other plant, and also the railways within the docks areas. (…) Four groups were re-formed in this way by the end of 1940. As these units had no technical role at home at that time, they were employed in local defence schemes and were given as much military training as possible – a very necessary step because the stevedore battalions had gone to France with very little training.”

No. 4 Docks Group was about 1,500 strong and defended the coastline from Copt Point to Hospital Hill (Martello Tower No. 8). WO 73/146 lists:
HQ at Shorncliffe: 9 Off 37 OR;
1005th Docks Maintenance Coy (194 men) in Shorncliffe
1006th Docks Operating Coy (411 men) in Folkestone;
1008th Docks Operating Coy (411 men) in Shorncliffe
1009th Docks Operating Coy (404 men) in Folkestone;
“Miscellaneous” at Shorncliffe, 5 Off 52 OR.

No. 5 Stevedore (Holding) Bn, HQ at Saltwood (22 Off 793 other ranks as of 30 Sept.). Commanding Officer: Lt. Col. N. Collins.
WD for Sept. 1940 to June 1941: WO 166/3470. This battalion was formed on 24.8.1940 (and disbanded again at the end of June 1941) and consisted of 4 companies numbered 17, 18, 19 and 20.
As far as can be made out from the (not very informative) WD of this unit, the situation at the end of Sept. 1940 was that the bn had three companies on the seafront, with 17 on the right, including Dymchurch (Grand) Redoubt (referred to as the “redoubt post”), 20 in the centre and 19 on the left, manning about 16 posts (including possibly some of the Martellos) in front of the Hythe Ranges and along West Parade/Marine Parade/Prince’s Parade, up to the point where the Royal Military Canal drains into the sea (beyond which the No. 4 Docks Group was responsible), while 18 Company was back somewhere in the vicinity of Saltwood Castle.
That would make a fairly thin screen with three companies along a front of about 7,000 m., but presumably they would have been quickly reinforced by the 600 (or so) staff and students of the Small Arms School which was halfway that sector and only about 1,000 m from the coastline.
"The true spirit of conversation consists in building on another man's observation, not overturning it." Edward George Bulwer-Lytton

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