The 1916 revolt against Britain started in Dublin .And Dublin is not a Gaeltacht area.
Your point 3 is more than an exaggeration :after the partition there were still Gaeltacht areas in Northern Ireland:
Sperrin Mountains in Tyrone
Rathlin Island in Antrim
And Gaelic was subsidized in Northern Ireland till WW 2 .
And following the 2001 census 36 % of the population of Northern Ireland had some knowledge of Gaelic, mostly catholics ,but also protestants .
And there is no proof that the supporters of the IRA were mostly Gaelic speaking people .
There is no proof that speaking Gaelic means hostility to Britain .De Valera spoke Gaelic and English ,and was hostile to Britain .And, there is no proof that his supporters during the Irish Civil War spoke Gaelic .
A lot of Irish nationalists,who were hostile to Britain, were non Gaelic speaking protestants .
Thus, I still wait for the relation between speaking Gaelic and being hostile to Britain and for the relation between hostility to Britain and speaking Gaelic .
Celtic language use in the metropolitan British Army in WWII?
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Sid Guttridge
- Member
- Posts: 10162
- Joined: 12 Jun 2008, 12:19
Re: Celtic language use in the metropolitan British Army in WWII?
Hi ljadw,
You asked for evidence and I gave you some:
1) The 1919 revolt against British rule began largely around western Gaeltacht areas.
2) The party in the Irish Civil War opposed to partition were particularly concentrated around these same areas.
3) All Gaelic speaking areas were included in Southern Ireland by partition, including those in nine-county Ulster. There were almost no Gaelic speakers in Northern Ireland and no monoglot Gaelic speakers at all to recruit into the British Army in the remaining six counties in WWII.
Nothing you have posted undermines any of that.
According to a 1938 survey of Rathlin Island by a Swedish academic, there were about nineteen fluent speakers of Gaelic out of a population of less than 250. Most were presumably old and/or women and none necessarily monoglot. It had probably ceased to be a gaeltacht area decades before, perhaps before partition.
How many people were speaking local Gaelic in the Sperrin Mountains in 1939? It was apparenly extinct by the 1950s, well before that on Rathlin Island, so it must have been very few in 1939, and again most presumably old and/or women and none necessarily monoglot. How many monoglot Gaelic speakers are you claiming and what is your evidence for that figure?
Cheers,
Sid.
You asked for evidence and I gave you some:
1) The 1919 revolt against British rule began largely around western Gaeltacht areas.
2) The party in the Irish Civil War opposed to partition were particularly concentrated around these same areas.
3) All Gaelic speaking areas were included in Southern Ireland by partition, including those in nine-county Ulster. There were almost no Gaelic speakers in Northern Ireland and no monoglot Gaelic speakers at all to recruit into the British Army in the remaining six counties in WWII.
Nothing you have posted undermines any of that.
According to a 1938 survey of Rathlin Island by a Swedish academic, there were about nineteen fluent speakers of Gaelic out of a population of less than 250. Most were presumably old and/or women and none necessarily monoglot. It had probably ceased to be a gaeltacht area decades before, perhaps before partition.
How many people were speaking local Gaelic in the Sperrin Mountains in 1939? It was apparenly extinct by the 1950s, well before that on Rathlin Island, so it must have been very few in 1939, and again most presumably old and/or women and none necessarily monoglot. How many monoglot Gaelic speakers are you claiming and what is your evidence for that figure?
Cheers,
Sid.
Re: Celtic language use in the metropolitan British Army in WWII?
Your first point is debunked by the fact that the Easter revolt happened in Dublin, not in Clare or Galway .
Your second point is meaningless ,as it does not mean that the population of Clare and Galway opposed the partition .
And for your third point : the 2001 census said that 36 % of the population of Northern Ireland had some knowledge of Gaelic, but this does not mean that 36 % of the population of Northern Ireland supported the IRA but it means that your assertion that there were ''almost no Gaelic speakers in Northern Ireland '' (which is totally meaningless )is not correct .
About Sperrin and Rathlin : later
Your second point is meaningless ,as it does not mean that the population of Clare and Galway opposed the partition .
And for your third point : the 2001 census said that 36 % of the population of Northern Ireland had some knowledge of Gaelic, but this does not mean that 36 % of the population of Northern Ireland supported the IRA but it means that your assertion that there were ''almost no Gaelic speakers in Northern Ireland '' (which is totally meaningless )is not correct .
About Sperrin and Rathlin : later
Re: Celtic language use in the metropolitan British Army in WWII?
There is a large gap between "some knowledge" of a language, and "uses it in daily life". The first is a result of teaching in school rather than use at home.ljadw wrote: ↑23 Feb 2022, 08:26And for your third point : the 2001 census said that 36 % of the population of Northern Ireland had some knowledge of Gaelic, but this does not mean that 36 % of the population of Northern Ireland supported the IRA but it means that your assertion that there were ''almost no Gaelic speakers in Northern Ireland '' (which is totally meaningless )is not correct .
Re: Celtic language use in the metropolitan British Army in WWII?
That's why using the word Gaeltacht is wrong .
What is more important ?
An active or passive knowledge of Gaelic ?
X % of Gaelic speakers of a specific number of Gaelic speakers ?
What is '' daily life " ?
Other point : the fact that the government of NI subsidized the teaching of Gaelic indicates that in 1921 there was a considerable group of people who were interested that their children had some knowledge of Gaelic ,and there is no proof that the motive for this was political .
What is more important ?
An active or passive knowledge of Gaelic ?
X % of Gaelic speakers of a specific number of Gaelic speakers ?
What is '' daily life " ?
Other point : the fact that the government of NI subsidized the teaching of Gaelic indicates that in 1921 there was a considerable group of people who were interested that their children had some knowledge of Gaelic ,and there is no proof that the motive for this was political .
Re: Celtic language use in the metropolitan British Army in WWII?
Sorry, but the fact that the Dublin Rising was mounted in Dublin doe not negate the fact of the concentration of republican support in gaelic speaking areas 1919-21. Dublin was the capital. the rising was led by intellectuals based in Dublin. The Irish Citizens Army was a paramilitary group from the Irish Transport and General Workers Union - based in Dublin.ljadw wrote: ↑23 Feb 2022, 08:26Your first point is debunked by the fact that the Easter revolt happened in Dublin, not in Clare or Galway .
Your second point is meaningless ,as it does not mean that the population of Clare and Galway opposed the partition .
And for your third point : the 2001 census said that 36 % of the population of Northern Ireland had some knowledge of Gaelic, but this does not mean that 36 % of the population of Northern Ireland supported the IRA but it means that your assertion that there were ''almost no Gaelic speakers in Northern Ireland '' (which is totally meaningless )is not correct .
About Sperrin and Rathlin : later
Just because in 2001 36% of people in Norn Iron could speak some Gaelic does not mean that was true in 1939. Learning Gaelic has been part of a cultural initiative to educate the Northern Irish Catholic community about their celtic heritage. 36% looks like 90% of the catholic population. It is still a highly political issue
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Td4dT-AkKbM
https://www.bbc.co.uk/news/uk-northern-ireland-57492549
Very few Ulster proddies would admit to knowing any gaelic. Gaelic would be a non starter in a military whose Irish Regiments recruited heavily from Ulster protestants.
Ulster is still segregated and occasionally violent.
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=9ikBvrkje9A
Re: Celtic language use in the metropolitan British Army in WWII?
The concentration of republican support in Gaelic speaking AND sparsely populated areas does not mean that the reason for this concentration was that there were '' a lot '' of people who spoke Gaelic .
In 1920 the Black and Tans burned the towns of Balbriggan and Trim who did not belong to the Gaeltacht and in January 1921 martial law was imposed in Wexford and Kilkenny ,also not Gaeltacht areas .
And on 21 November 1920 16 persons were killed by the IRA in Dublin,which indicates that the IRA had a lot of support outside the Gaeltacht .
The causal relation between speaking Gaelic and hostility to Britain is unproved .The same for the opposite.
Two examples :
Daniel O'Connell (The Liberator ) was indifferent to the survival of Gaelic and said that it was better if all Irish spoke English .
Douglas Hyde ,the founder of the Gaelic League,was fired from the Gaelic League in 1915 ,because he opposed the secession of Ireland from the United Kingdom .
About the importance of Gaelic in the North, the fact remains that it was subsidized by the Unionist government till WW 2 .
The reason was probably to weaken the influence of the IRA among the Catholics.
At the beginning,the reasons for the riots in the North were social and the IRA ( I Ran Away ) was dormant, almost dying . Bernadette Devlin was not a supporter of the IRA and was lukewarm about the unification of Ireland .
In 1920 the Black and Tans burned the towns of Balbriggan and Trim who did not belong to the Gaeltacht and in January 1921 martial law was imposed in Wexford and Kilkenny ,also not Gaeltacht areas .
And on 21 November 1920 16 persons were killed by the IRA in Dublin,which indicates that the IRA had a lot of support outside the Gaeltacht .
The causal relation between speaking Gaelic and hostility to Britain is unproved .The same for the opposite.
Two examples :
Daniel O'Connell (The Liberator ) was indifferent to the survival of Gaelic and said that it was better if all Irish spoke English .
Douglas Hyde ,the founder of the Gaelic League,was fired from the Gaelic League in 1915 ,because he opposed the secession of Ireland from the United Kingdom .
About the importance of Gaelic in the North, the fact remains that it was subsidized by the Unionist government till WW 2 .
The reason was probably to weaken the influence of the IRA among the Catholics.
At the beginning,the reasons for the riots in the North were social and the IRA ( I Ran Away ) was dormant, almost dying . Bernadette Devlin was not a supporter of the IRA and was lukewarm about the unification of Ireland .