At last they rest in peace

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Blackheart
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At last they rest in peace

Post by Blackheart » 18 Jul 2003 12:29


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Baltasar
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Post by Baltasar » 18 Jul 2003 14:39

Now, in a fitting tribute to their bravery, they have finally been laid to rest near the grave of Pilot Officer Griffiths.


Bravery? I doubt they asked anybody in the ruins of Berlin about that. I can't see much bravery in flying very high over enemy territory and bombing it's citizens back to the stone age.

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Post by John W » 18 Jul 2003 15:10

Baltasar wrote:
Now, in a fitting tribute to their bravery, they have finally been laid to rest near the grave of Pilot Officer Griffiths.


Bravery? I doubt they asked anybody in the ruins of Berlin about that. I can't see much bravery in flying very high over enemy territory and bombing it's citizens back to the stone age.
One could argue that it tok plenty of guts to keep the plane level and drop on target while there was FLAK and air-defense fighters all around you. One could also argue that it took guts to go deep into the heart of enemy territory with a belly ful of explosives in a plane not much stronger than matchwood (perhaps). It also took guts, one could argue, knowing that life expectancy of your profession wasn't all that high... and still trying your best to get the job done.

Different PoV.

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Post by Caldric » 18 Jul 2003 17:07

Baltasar wrote:
Now, in a fitting tribute to their bravery, they have finally been laid to rest near the grave of Pilot Officer Griffiths.


Bravery? I doubt they asked anybody in the ruins of Berlin about that. I can't see much bravery in flying very high over enemy territory and bombing it's citizens back to the stone age.


Then you know nothing about it and should not comment on subjects you have no knowledge of.

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Post by Baltasar » 18 Jul 2003 17:17

I just don't see much difference between murdering civilians with a pistol or with a bomb. It's the same thing and I never heard that any allied soldiers were taken to court for bombing civilians.

@Sturm: Without the Luftwaffe being a real threat and with the ability to fly higher than the Flakrange, there's much less guts needed.

@Caldric: I know lots of people (including my own family) who have lost loved ones in the firestorms of the bombed cities, like Berlin and Kiel. I think I know what I'm talking about.

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Post by Caldric » 18 Jul 2003 17:58

Baltasar wrote:I just don't see much difference between murdering civilians with a pistol or with a bomb. It's the same thing and I never heard that any allied soldiers were taken to court for bombing civilians.

@Sturm: Without the Luftwaffe being a real threat and with the ability to fly higher than the Flakrange, there's much less guts needed.

@Caldric: I know lots of people (including my own family) who have lost loved ones in the firestorms of the bombed cities, like Berlin and Kiel. I think I know what I'm talking about.


No you do not know what you are talking about if you think these men were not brave. You know nothing about which you are posting. Do you know most US deaths were over the Sky's of Europe?

Just because people died that someone you know, knew, is of little point to the object of this thread, nor does it give you great insight into the issue. These men fought for a great cause, I am sorry German civilians died but that is the consequence of war.

I had an uncle die on the Beaches in the South Pacific, but that does not give me any knowledge nor does it make all Japanese gutless.

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Post by Baltasar » 18 Jul 2003 18:09

Bombing people doesn't make them any better than any german soldier shooting people/pows. I think the german would nee more guts since he looked in their eyes.

US suffered most losses in the pacific theater, not over europe. If you want to say that US casualties in europe were mostly in air operations, you may be right (don't have the numbers). Without any further numbers, I suspect that more aircrews died while the Luftwaffe still was a threat than when the real big bombing actions were done.

I still wonder why none of the generals who ordered that mass murdering was trialed.

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Post by Caldric » 18 Jul 2003 18:14

And here is an excellent post by David Thompson in regards to USAAF in the closing months of the war, hardly sending 300 bomber raids to hunt down civilians.

This is just a small snap shot look at the following link for much more information

http://www.thirdreichforum.com/viewtopic.php?t=25318


For those readers who would like to see what was the military justification for allied airstrikes in Europe toward the end of the war, here is a chronology of the US Army Air Force (USAAF) missions for April and May of 1945 -- I was unable to find a similar chronology for the RAF, RCAF, RAAF, RSAAF and other units under British command, so this is restricted to US operations:

USAAF Chronology:
COMBAT CHRONOLOGY OF THE US ARMY AIR FORCES - APR 1945
FTP SITES
1. ftp.rutgers.edu in directory pub/wwii/usaf
2. byrd.mu.wvnet.edu (129.71.32.152) in pub/history/military/airforce/ wwii_chronology

NOTE: A number in parenthesis after a target name indicates the number of bombers attacking.

SUNDAY, 1 APRIL 1945

EUROPEAN THEATER OF OPERATIONS (ETO)

STRATEGIC OPERATIONS (Eighth Air Force): Mission 921: 12 B-24s drop leaflets in the Netherlands and Germany during the night without loss.

TACTICAL OPERATIONS
First Tactical Air Force (Provisional): Unit moves: HQ 64th Fighter Wing from Nancy, France to Edenkoben, Germany; HQ 320th Bombardment Group (Medium), from Longvic Airfield, Dijon to Tavaux Airfield, Dole, France.
Ninth Air Force: No bomber operations due to weather. In Germany, fighters fly patrols, armed reconnaissance, and support the US 3d and 9th Armored Divisions in the Paderborn-Lippstadt and Warburg areas, the XX Corps astride and E of the Fulda River, and the XII Corps which reaches the Werra River W of Meiningen. The 72d Liaison Squadron, Ninth AF (attached to Sixth Army Group), moves from Kaiserlautern to Darmstadt, Germany with L-5s. During Apr 45, the following units move: HQ IX Fighter Command from Bruhl to Weimar, Germany; HQ 9th Bombardment Division (Medium) from Reims, France to Namur, Belgium; and HQ 99th Combat Bombardment Wing (Medium) from Beaumont, France to Tirlemont, Belgium.

MEDITERRANEAN THEATER OF OPERATIONS (MTO)

STRATEGIC OPERATIONS (Fifteenth Air Force): Almost 400 B-24s and B-17s bomb the Maribor, Yugoslavia railroad bridge, marshalling yards at Sankt Polten, Selzthal, Zeltweg, Graz, and Villach, Austria, the railroad bridge at Krieglach, Austria, and gun positions on the Adriatic coast near Venice, Italy; 82 P-38s bomb the Ybbs, Austria railroad bridge while 52 P-51s strafe rail traffic in the Prague-Plzen, Czechoslovakia area; other P-38s and P-51s fly reconnaissance and reconnaissance escort.

TACTICAL OPERATIONS (Twelfth Air Force): In Italy during the night of 31 Mar/1 Apr, A-20s and A-26s on intruder missions over the Po Valley continue to attack road and railroad bridges, motor transport, loading points, and other targets; principal strikes are made at Po River bridges; fighters and fighter-bombers during the day strike rail bridges, dumps, rail lines, marshalling yards, trains, vehicles, gun positions, several buildings (including an ammunition plant and truck factory), and a variety of targets of opportunity in the Po Valley and NE Italy; medium bombers hit railroad bridges at Calcinato, Crema, Mantua, Monselice, Colle Isarco, San Ambrogio di Valpolicella, and Perea; HQ 87th Fighter Wing is disbanded at Florence; HQ 321st Bombardment Group (Medium) moves from Solenzara, Corsica to Falconara.

MONDAY, 2 APRIL 1945

EUROPEAN THEATER OF OPERATIONS (ETO)

STRATEGIC OPERATIONS (Eighth Air Force): 2 missions are flown.
Mission 922:
1. 447 B-17s, 261 B-24s and 572 P-47s and P-51s are dispatched against 6 airfields in Denmark but are recalled because of bad weather in the target area; 1 B-17 and 1 P-47 (pilot MIA) are lost and 1 P-47 is damaged beyond repair.
2. 26 of 27 P-51s fly a scouting mission without loss.
3. 15 P-51s escort 7 F-5s on photo reconnaissance missions over Germany.
Mission 923: During the night of 2/3 Apr, 9 of 10 B-24s drop leaflets in the Netherlands, France and Germany without loss and 10 B-24s fly CARPETBAGGER missions to Denmark without loss.

TACTICAL OPERATIONS
First Tactical Air Force (Provisional): Unit moves: HQ 358th Fighter Group from Toul, France to Sandhofen, Germany; HQ 69th Tactical Reconnaissance Group and 22d and 111th Tactical Reconnaissance Squadrons from Nancy and Azelot, France respectively to Haguenau, France with F-6s; 441st, 442d, 443d and 444th Bombardment Squadrons (Medium), 320th Bombardment Group (Medium), from Longvic Airfield, Dijon to Tavaux Airfield, Dole, France with B-26s.
Ninth Air Force: Weather prevents operations by the 9th Bombardment Division and XXIX Tactical Air Command (Provisional). In Germany, the IX and XIX Tactical Air Commands fly patrols and armed reconnaissance over wide expanses of Germany claiming 17 airplanes downed and the IX Tactical Air Command supports the US 9th Armored Division at the Diemel River bridgehead near Warburg. Unit moves: 12th Tactical Reconnaissance Squadron, 10th Photographic Group (Reconnaissance) (attached to 67th Tactical Reconnaissance Group) from Euren to Ober Olm, Germany with F-6s; 30th Photographic Reconnaissance and 109th Tactical Reconnaissance Squadrons, 67th Tactical Reconnaissance Group, from Vogelsang to Limburg, Germany with F-5s and F-6s respectively; 39th Photographic Reconnaissance Squadron, Ninth AF [attached to 9th Tactical Reconnaissance Group (Provisional)] from Jarny, France to Maastricht, the Netherlands with F-5s.

MEDITERRANEAN THEATER OF OPERATIONS (MTO)

STRATEGIC OPERATIONS (Fifteenth Air Force): Almost 600 B-24s and B-17s, with fighter escorts, bomb communications targets in Austria including the marshalling yards at Graz, Sankt Polten, and Krems, and a railroad bridge on the Sulm River; 38 P-38s dive-bomb a railroad bridge at Wildon; 71 P-38s and 55 P-51s strafe Vienna-Munich, Germany and Wiener-Neustadt-Maribor, Yugoslavia rail traffic; others carry out photo and weather reconnaissance and reconnaissance escort flights.

TACTICAL OPERATIONS (Twelfth Air Force): Major General Benjamin W Chidlaw takes command of the Twelfth AF and will shortly take over command of the Mediterranean Allied Tactical Air Force (MATAF) also. In Italy, A-20s and A-26s continue intruder missions during the night of 1/2 Apr concentrating on Po River crossings and other Po Valley communications targets; B-25s bomb railroad bridges at Fornovo di Taro, Drauburg, San Michele all' Adige, Matrei am Brenner, Steinach, and Colle Isarco, and a railroad fill at Vo Sinistro; fighters and fighter-bombers again hit communications in the Po Valley but divert sizeable effort to attacks on methane plants in the C Po area; the P-47s are attacked by about 40 fighters during the day, 13 are claimed destroyed; HQ 340th Bombardment Group (Medium) moves from Alesan, Corsica to Rimini.

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Post by Caldric » 18 Jul 2003 18:19

Baltasar wrote:Bombing people doesn't make them any better than any german soldier shooting people/pows. I think the german would nee more guts since he looked in their eyes.

US suffered most losses in the pacific theater, not over europe. If you want to say that US casualties in europe were mostly in air operations, you may be right (don't have the numbers). Without any further numbers, I suspect that more aircrews died while the Luftwaffe still was a threat than when the real big bombing actions were done.

I still wonder why none of the generals who ordered that mass murdering was trialed.


Yes it does, it makes all the difference in the world. German's did not have to stay in the cities, they could get in bunkers, they could fight, they could run.

What choice did the victims of your Nation's murderous programs have? How can you even compare the two is beyond me...

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Post by Baltasar » 18 Jul 2003 18:44

Fat chance to get to a bunker in a overcrowded city. A domestic area is indeed a vital military target.

It's like fireing with all artillery you can get into a city which is defended by very few enemy troops. Where was the necessarity to do that? It prolonged the war and I don't believe that anybody in the allied staff didn't expect that.

It was murder, nothing less.

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Post by Caldric » 18 Jul 2003 18:49

Baltasar wrote:Fat chance to get to a bunker in a overcrowded city. A domestic area is indeed a vital military target.

It's like fireing with all artillery you can get into a city which is defended by very few enemy troops. Where was the necessarity to do that? It prolonged the war and I don't believe that anybody in the allied staff didn't expect that.

It was murder, nothing less.


Bombing Germany did not prolong the war. If you will read the official US bombing missions I refer to you will see they were after targets of military importance. Not civilians.

But I will let it go at that because we will not reach netural ground.

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Post by Baltasar » 18 Jul 2003 19:23

Your post referred to operations in the last two moths of the war, I doubt there were any large civilian targets to bomb any more. There is no doubt that large parts of many cities were destroyed due to the allied bombing campaign. Saying that they were aiming at military targets is beyound anything reasonable.

Did you know that we still find duds from WW2 today? You may want to ask the majors of Kiel, Berlin or one of the other cities for further info on that matter.

The bombing prolonged the war, since it kept the soldiers (and more important the officers) behind Hitler. Seeing the allied destroying their homes didn't do much to bring them to the point to give up the fight. That's one of the main reasons why the germans fought that hard in France '44.

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Post by Caldric » 18 Jul 2003 20:09

Baltasar wrote:Your post referred to operations in the last two moths of the war, I doubt there were any large civilian targets to bomb any more. There is no doubt that large parts of many cities were destroyed due to the allied bombing campaign. Saying that they were aiming at military targets is beyound anything reasonable.

Did you know that we still find duds from WW2 today? You may want to ask the majors of Kiel, Berlin or one of the other cities for further info on that matter.

The bombing prolonged the war, since it kept the soldiers (and more important the officers) behind Hitler. Seeing the allied destroying their homes didn't do much to bring them to the point to give up the fight. That's one of the main reasons why the germans fought that hard in France '44.


They find bombs in the UK also, still find German Land mines in what was the USSR. Did you know the German Government wanted to totally destroy Leningrad and to not help any civilians there or refugees, actually they were ordered to destroy the city completely and create lakes where Leningrad and Moscow stood and to allow the populations to starve. More civilians died in Leningrad then all German civilians to Allied Bombing. Does that not shock you? How many civilians did Nazi Germany destroy?

I have no sympathy for the bombing of Germany, I have great sympathy for the people who died but it was a needed thing, bombing Germany was at the time perfectly logical I would have no sleepless nights if it would have been my task to carry it out. Bombing German cities was a small price to pay.

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Post by Erik E » 18 Jul 2003 22:42

I really don`t see any reason to discuss who comitted the worst crimes.....
This topic has been brougt up several times in the holocaust & warcrimes section, so I would really suggest to continue one of those if there is anything more to be said :|

Maybe it`s not brave to drop bombs on civillians, but it sure took a lot of guts flying that deep into enemy territory. Anyway, these crews did what was expected from them. If you want to blame someone, I think you will have to talk about the people higher up in the system.

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Post by Caldric » 18 Jul 2003 23:01

Erik E wrote:Maybe it`s not brave to drop bombs on civillians, but it sure took a lot of guts flying that deep into enemy territory. Anyway, these crews did what was expected from them. If you want to blame someone, I think you will have to talk about the people higher up in the system.

Erik E


All I am saying is to call them gutless is very far off the mark.

Over 100,000 Allied Airmen lost their lives over Europe. Hardly a safe place to be riding up over that flak that seemed to find them each time. Considering 405,000 US Military deaths in WWII this was not the best place to be assigned.

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