Churchill & Harris - Terror raids

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Zitterklapfen
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Churchill & Harris - Terror raids

Post by Zitterklapfen » 16 Aug 2003 16:02

[Split from the "was crazy about men from Reich?" thread]


Roderick wrote:I sometimes ask myself:

If they had gone to a psychiatrist they would be considered crazy, insane, psychopath...

...or just ordinary peolple?

The supreme Führer Adolf Hiltler
Herman Göring
Heinrich Himmler
Josef Göebbels
Rudolf Hess
Reinhard Heydrich
Julius Streicher
Josef Mengele
Joaquim Ribbentrop
Ernst Kaltenbrunner
Robert Ley
Odilo Globonick
and others

Rorderick



You forgot some (allied) commanders like air marshall Arthur Harris or prime minister Winston Churchill.

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Beppo Schmidt
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Post by Beppo Schmidt » 16 Aug 2003 16:06

You forgot some (allied) commanders like air marshall Arthur Harris or prime minister Winston Churchill.


Being ruthless and being insane aren't necessarily the same thing. Although I do believe Harris should have been tried for war crimes by firebombing German cities with the soul intent of terrorizing the population into submission. But let's not get into that argument again...

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Zitterklapfen
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Post by Zitterklapfen » 16 Aug 2003 16:17

Beppo Schmidt wrote:
You forgot some (allied) commanders like air marshall Arthur Harris or prime minister Winston Churchill.


Being ruthless and being insane aren't necessarily the same thing.


Not necessarily, but the result is often the same: the murder of innocent civilians. Nevertheless you are right, we won't start this discussion now.

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Post by Panther » 16 Aug 2003 22:50

I do think that Winston Churchill was a bit instabil while taking drugs, nevertheless this doesn't have to make him mad. As well as the germans whom had high IQ:s, why couldn't they be insane just because they had high IQ:s? The borderland between madness and genious are non-exsistant...

/Regards Panther

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Post by Englander » 17 Aug 2003 09:00

In a recent British poll, Winston Churchill was voted the greatest Briton ever.He had more guts then anyone listed on that nazi list.I bet he could drink em all underneath the table aswell :)

As for Butch Harris, I would buy him a drink anyday.The germans wanted total war,So Harris obliged them.

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Post by Zitterklapfen » 17 Aug 2003 13:59

Englander wrote:As for Butch Harris, I would buy him a drink anyday.The germans wanted total war,So Harris obliged them.


The germans or their government? Even if they wanted war, that would not necessarily mean bombing civilians in terror raids, would it? Don't take it as a personal offence, but your post lacks deeper signs of any thoughts.

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Post by Englander » 17 Aug 2003 15:14

Zitterklapfen wrote:
Englander wrote:As for Butch Harris, I would buy him a drink anyday.The germans wanted total war,So Harris obliged them.


The germans or their government? Even if they wanted war, that would not necessarily mean bombing civilians in terror raids, would it? Don't take it as a personal offence, but your post lacks deeper signs of any thoughts.


No offence taken. Up to 1943 the Germans were having a good war.The General public were full square behind Hitler... When you declare total war,that means you asked no favours,and you got no favours...Don`t say you wasn`t warned. The first raids were leaflets raids,and I'm sure they were used for toilet paper.The last raids were High explosives.If the Germans didn`t released then. They surely released later, that they bit off more then they could chew.

Cold and heartless it may seem,but I feel more sorry for the Allied bomber crews,then the German citizens.If you cant destroy the factories, then you have to destroy the people that work in them...How many Germans were involved in the war effort? If one German bullet is made, then in my book, that`s one too many.

What would London look like, if the Germans had a fleet of one thousand four engined aircraft in 1940...Do you really believe the Luftwaffe would have shown mercy?

You give this some thought,my friend.That YOU have a opportunity to voice your opion in a free world.

Let me remind you of some British mercy.Once the war was over.The Russians wanted 10,000 Germans shot.Churchill put a stop to that.
The Allied, Berlin air lift.The British foiled a Jewish plot, too poison the water reservoirs.

God Bless

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Post by Zitterklapfen » 17 Aug 2003 15:29

Englander wrote:What would London look like, if the Germans had a fleet of one thousand four engined aircraft in 1940...Do you really believe the Luftwaffe would have shown mercy?


Thats a valid point but doesn't change the fact that your country commited more than one warcrime. To be honest i'm really wondering. I'm repeatly asking myself again and again, why only germans should have done crimes against humanity. I'm asking myself about the bombing of Hamburg in june 1943, about the bombing of Tokyo in march 1945 and so on. Every time i read posts of english or american visitors concerning these acts of terror, i'm always getting the same answer and phrases: war is war, war is brutal, you have started the war, it was military necessary.

Lucky enough their are a few intelligent and thoughtful exceptions - people who have accepted the guilt of their ancestors, people who have understood that war is not so easy, that you can put in a b/w frame. Here in Germany we have talked about our guilt for over 40 years now. How long do we have to wait to see something similar in your country?

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Post by Odessa2 » 17 Aug 2003 16:03

I agree Zitter.

I have questioned many times the bombing of Hamburg and one you forgot, Dresden. In Dresen, we purposely picked it because it would Burn the Worst when we fire-bombed it.

wow, that's evil. Anyways, I've been told by most historians that it was necessary and seemed brutal because of the amount of bombers we needed just to take out one ball bearing factory. This is all because bombs were not effecient back then, only 5% of bombs hit their target.


And Zitter, know this. I have interviewed dozens of american WW2 veterans including my grandfather who was in the Ardennes and Bastogne and almost all of them said they liked the germans once they understood them. They all felt sorry for them. And the only people my grandfather hated there was the French.

The french lied and told our government that they were stealing their wood furniture to burn for fire wood so they could get money for it. but they were lying, my grandfather and others in his unit were Freezing and sleeping in holes in the ground of snow because the enemy would see their fires.

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Post by Englander » 17 Aug 2003 16:43

"Lucky enough their are a few intelligent and thoughtful exceptions - people who have accepted the guilt of their ancestors, people who have understood that war is not so easy, that you can put in a b/w frame. Here in Germany we have talked about our guilt for over 40 years now. How long do we have to wait to see something similar in your country?"

That quote ties it up very nicely..How far back in time do you want to go?.
I`m not going to apologies for the Redcoats,Or the Crusaders.Reading you logic, I think Britain should put in a claim again the Italians,after all they invaded Britain 900 years ago.

Look, It is clear WW2 hangs round the Germans heads,like a millstone.
The Film industry always portrays them as the bad guys.It was once said every time a war film was shown on British tv,the German ambassador received hate mail.
Your country has continue to pay out war reparations.And basically your country is saying, Enough is enough.No more.So your new tactic is to drag in people like Harris,and Churchill..But I got news for you, it won`t work,and you want to know why?When they bring out films like Stalingrad,The world will never have empathy for the Germans in WW2

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Post by Whisper » 17 Aug 2003 18:07

Englander wrote:Your country has continue to pay out war reparations.And basically your country is saying, Enough is enough.No more.So your new tactic is to drag in people like Harris,and Churchill..But I got news for you, it won`t work,and you want to know why?When they bring out films like Stalingrad,The world will never have empathy for the Germans in WW2


Sorry, but what has a movie like Stalingrad to do with reparations, or the opinion that warcrimes have been also ordered by the allies?
And why do you think it would be a tactic to drag in Harris and his comrades? I think its a bad joke to put a up a monument for a guy like Harris, he is not much better then the germans that were tried in Nurnberg! But im not trying drag him into anything because of reparations or anything! You are right, in my eyes it is enough! But there are only a very few people here with that opinion! I cant remember his name, but it was a guy from England who said "Theres only one nation in the world where you are only hearing bad things about your own country from the infant-school on: its Germany" This country has accepted his guilt, and it will never forgett that! All the guys listed up at the beginning of the topic were really insane in my eyes and they were guilty, but you can surely add some names from the allied side. The end does NOT justifie the means! I said that before under another topic,even if it is no crime due violating the law, there is still a moral guilt.

Bw
Dennis

PS: Sorry, im a little off topic

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Post by Tonyny44 » 18 Aug 2003 16:02

The germans or their government? Even if they wanted war, that would not necessarily mean bombing civilians in terror raids, would it? Don't take it as a personal offence, but your post lacks deeper signs of any thoughts.[/quote]


What would London look like, if the Germans had a fleet of one thousand four engined aircraft in 1940...Do you really believe the Luftwaffe would have shown mercy?.[/quote]


Eh the Luftwaffe ACCIDENTLY bombed some civilian areas for the first time in the summer of 1940. The brits DID NOT in their revenge. BIG difference.

Hitler should have let his Generals have their way in France by the coast and that "victory" at Dunkirk would have never happened.

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Post by KalaVelka » 18 Aug 2003 17:02

You know Englander, i would buy more than one drink to Goering if he would have bombed your grandfather and mother :wink: . Take your head out off your ass. Bomber harris did just the same thing than Dirlewanger and palls did. Or let me think..Dirlewanger had armed opponents, allied airmen didnt have in dresden. [/b]

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Post by Andy H » 18 Aug 2003 17:19

KalaVelka

Please keep the tone friendly.

This topic has been done to death, so please look through previous threads (via the search) to see if your question etc has been asked and replied too.

This subject also gets very emotive on both sides, but lets try and keep it civil and factual. Lets try and look behind the Headline propoganda on both sides.

Andy H

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Post by KalaVelka » 18 Aug 2003 18:06

Ok, I apologize you Englander and the hole community.

kasper

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