Great Britian

[Musashi]

Could anybody give me address of site with British military ranks?
(WW II and present - if any difference).

[Andy H]

http://www.stokesey.demon.co.uk/wwii/armyranks.html

Andy from the Shire

[Musashi]

@Andy H
Domo arigato Igirisujin-san!
What about the images of the ranks? I would like to see it.

[Musashi]

By the way:
U can see my poll with Japanese military ranks on the forum.

[Lord Gort]

Sure Varjag, Great Britian was economically exhausted by december 1941.

The money to made was as ever through loans, US government and American bank loans rolled into the Country right up until the Labour government was voted in, then they ceased. The United States did not just enter the war because of declarations of war and because of the threat of two hostile powers on either sea board but for the very real fear of losing the Billion of dollars poured into Great Britain in loans, if the UK went under the loans would be lost. Although not as much as an incentive than in the first world war the United States did enter the war to some extent to ensure that rich americans could go richer.


Regards, the forums self made economist it seems....


PS Lander, sometimes i sense bitterness in your posts about your countries total and utter defeat by my nation and allies. If my country had the sense to get a big powerful ally rather than an impotent rotting pizza like yours i would call that inteligence, wouldnt you....

oh and the thousands of British servicemen who died defending the world from the disgusting ideas championed by your countries government and high command in the war would not be pleased to see there efforts fobbed off with the term.....the yanks did it all.

[Polynike]

[
Perhaps it's safer to say the Commonwealth stood alone. As far as the US goes, well it took them about 2 1/2 yrs to get into it and another 2 1/2 to learn what the hell they were doing. [/quote]

i agree whole heartedly

[Caldric]

Although not as much as an incentive than in the first world war the United States did enter the war to some extent to ensure that rich americans could go richer.

Any facts to back that up or is that just an opinion?

The fact is many "rich Americans" were against a war with Germany. So I would be interested in how you come to this conclusion. Also the United States did not "enter" the war we were drug kicking and screaming into it. Sure Roosevelt would have had us in it in 1939, however he could not do that and the "rich Americans" where for the most part against it, we have no dictator to say "by my word there is war". If getting rich were the case they would have done that without going to war, there were plenty of customers around, I mean you know forgive me but it was Europe that drug the world into "2" major conflagrations that killed about 70+ million humans. So if you think I am bitter then you are correct, the arrogance of Europeans never ceases to amaze me in their attitude towards the great "Devil" across the lake. While incompetent and roguish European diplomats fired the fuel to war in Europe, American diplomats and leaders tried their best to keep us out of the insanity of Europe.

[alsaco]

Caldric,

You are probably right.

The US citizens in 1939 were certainly not ready to fight. On one side, isolationism was strong, and people did really believe they could escape an european war. On the other sympathy for Germany was hight, and people did really believe Hitler wanted just put an end to Versailles treaty.

Irish immigrants were against England, German immigrants were pro-german, Italian immigrants had no anti-Mussolini feelings. Moreover pacifism and post-worldwar1 remembrances did push toward neutrality.

Roosevelt's opinion was different, but like you say, he could not do that.

Chicago newspaper, Hearst, Ford and many others were Hitler-inclined. Even Kennedy's father, Ambassador in London was considered pro-german.

On the other hand, rich americans rapidly understood that delivering arms and goods to England would help the depressive economy. Roosevelt could this way help the british.

Things changed slowly. Killings in Poland, the sinking of France, the generalisation of war in all Europe, invasion of Russia did show that Hitler may not be the good guy, with limited readjustment target, expected.

Japan solved the dilemma.

When you say that the US had no responsability in the breakout of WW2, I think you are right. Except that Wilson's peace in 1918/19 was part of its origin.

But nobody can condemn the US when they defend their people, and protect their interests. I understand your irritation when some interventions put systematically the blame on you, although the responsability rests on them, or somebody else, but think we must avoid putting things on an "arrogance" level.
It does not help, and it does not mean much. Whose fly-nation can be disturbing for the US government in todays world ?.

[Landser]

Lordy,Lordy..

<<<PS Lander, sometimes i sense bitterness in your posts about your countries total and utter defeat by my nation and allies.>>>>


I suppose you meant me.

To be truthfully I personally have no gripe with the outcome,think about how my life could have been otherwise.Just would'nt liked pulling guard duties in some godforesaken rathole eather England or Siberia, for most of my life.
I rather think that some of you Brits have a big chip on your shoulders and an inferiority complex towards your bailee.


Try to get over your Empire nostalgia and cope with the present.There is only one Superpower country left. Like I said GB did"nt do diddle ones they were on their own.


Regards from Fla.

[Andy H]

To all concerned

Can we please ensure that this thread doesn't turn into a slanging match about who did what, for what, when & why, because we know where it leads.

Many Thanks

Andy from the Shire

[Colbro]

Hi Musashi
I'm new here and am replying to your earlier posting "What about the Polish soldiers?"
Indeed, last September, I saw the graves of General Sosabowski's boys in Oosterbeek cemetery. This contains, in all, a total of 1,700 graves of those who lost their lives at Arnhem and Oosterbeek.
Andy, I really do agree with your above comment. In the final analysis, war comes down to people of all nationalities being killed. Every nation of the allies did their bit. It's just as sad for a British parent, an American, a Pole, a Russian or a German.
Later during the same trip, we visited the Reichswald and I found the grave of my second cousin. He was buried in the same row as 5 of the crew of his Lancaster. He died when I was just a baby but I can remember his mother who lived until I was 25. Although I didn't know him, it was quite an emotional experience to find the grave. At the time, all we knew was that he was killed "in operations over Germany." On my return, I managed to find out when and where. Here are the details:

23/24 September 1944
DORTMUND-EMS CANAL – ‘Operation Ladbergen’
136 Lancasters and 5 Mosquitoes of 5 Group to bomb the banks of the 2 parallel branches of the canal at a point near Ladbergen, north of Munster, where the level of the canal water was well above the level of the surrounding land. Despite the presence of 7/10ths cloud in the target area, breaches were made in the banks of both branches of the canal and a 6-mile stretch of it was drained. Most of this damage was caused by 2 direct hits by 12,000-lb Tallboy bombs dropped by aircraft of 617 Squadron at the opening of the raid.
14 Lancasters - more than 10 per cent of the Lancaster force -were lost.
61 Squadron Lancaster Mk 111 ND988 code QR – E
Crew
Fg Off I M Campbell RNZAF
Sgt J N Hoad
Sgt R D Cole
F/S M J Miln RNZAF
Sgt J McCabe
Sgt S V Wickland
Sgt H Lea

All apart from Sgt Lea (POW) perished.
Aircraft departed 1907 hrs from Skellingthorpe , Lincoln, to breach the Dortmund-Ems Canal N of Munster. Crashed circa 2330 hrs at Wechte, 3 km SW from the centre of Tecklenburg. All those who lost their lives now lie in Reichswald Forest War Cemetery. It was one of three aircraft of 61 Sqn lost in this raid.
Sgt Cole was my first cousin.
Rather than have slanging matches, we should remember the circumstances under which combatants of ALL nations gave their lives.
In the final analysis, this is what war is all about.
Later on the same trip, we visited Steenbergen Cemetery where one of our greatest war heroes, Wing Commander Guy Gibson, VC, DFC and Bar, DSO and Bar, hero of the Dambusters raid is buried.
Following the Dambusters raid, Gibson was a national hero and accompanied Winston Churchill to America etc on morale raising visits. He was however, a born warrior and constantly agitated to be put back on "ops." Eventually, the authorities relented and he and his navigator Warwick, set out on a raid, in a Mosquito, I think near Munich, Gibson was the precision "master bomber."
The raid was a success but they were brought down by AAA fire and crashed at Steenbergen. Both were killed. When it was realised who was in the plane, the Municipality in Steenbergen wanted to give them a proper funeral. The Germans forbade it, only a few dignitaries were allowed to attend, the funeral had to be very simple and quick. After the Germans were driven away, the people of Steenbergen revered the heroes who were now at rest in their Roman Catholic cemetery.
Instead of being removed to the nearby war cemetery at Bergen-op-Zoom, it was decided that they would rest in peace here. The graves are administered by the Commonwealth War Graves Commision.

[Caldric]

But nobody can condemn the US when they defend their people, and protect their interests. I understand your irritation when some interventions put systematically the blame on you, although the responsability rests on them, or somebody else, but think we must avoid putting things on an "arrogance" level.
It does not help, and it does not mean much. Whose fly-nation can be disturbing for the US government in todays world ?.

You are correct on many points Alasco, and the US was a co-author for sure of the Pacific war. Although the war in the Pacific somewhat came about through the US using diplomatic tactics that are nothing unusual in the world we live in. Embargoes, trade sanctions and such, of course these diplomatic pressures were not taken as diplomacy in pre-war Japan but pretty much hostile acts, of course we all know where that lead.

The problem I have is statements such as the United States going to war in order to make rich people richer. For the American people they went to war because they were attacked, and declared upon and because there was a great threat upon the world. I think it is very wrong for an Englishmen to state these things when the US Government did everything it could, some of which may have been against our own laws, to support the UK without ever expecting to get money back for the support given. Which the vast majority of it never was, including the Lions share of the Marshall Plan in post-apocalyptic Europe, perhaps a little over imaginative but looking at pictures not far from the truth. Sure there were reasons for the Marshall program that were not all about humanitarian aid, the Red Scare was real and a real threat. However, the fact that the biggest part of the Marshall Plan went to the UK shows that the Red Scare was not even a major reason for the plan, there was little chance of the UK going red, but they still got most of the money and aid post-WWII.

Its all history now of course and it is easy to say what we like in order to slander a nation and its people, I would like to think some good came of it, I must say the United States representing most of the Western World in the last 50+ years has at least kept us from World Wars of horrendous proportions. Something Europe was not able to do with all of its history, who knows perhaps in 600 years the US will be shown as the aggressor.

[Colbro]

We were all in this together. It is far too easy to forget that the aspect of the war which Churchill feared most, was that posed by just a handful of "U" boats putting a stranglehold on our Atlantic lifetime and this before America even had entered the war.
In Britain, in 1939, British agriculture was only capable of providing about 40% of our food, hence the"Dig for Victory" campaign. As well as food from both the US and Canada, a large portion of transatlantic traffic was oil and munitions, without which we could have done nothing. These were truly desperate days, at a time when nobody was certain that the Nazis would not try to invade, we also had to wrestle with the logistics of supplying substantial armies, both in the Middle and Far East and places peripheral to them such as Malta. We could not have done this without the help of the USA and our Commonwealth.
Undoubtedly, the best news for us was knowing that America was in the fight. Despite this, 1942 was an appalling year. The loss of the Hood, the Prince of Wales and the Repulse, the fall of Singapore, the eighth army falling back before Rommel. Not until November 1942 did we begin to see a little of glimmer of light with Mongomery's victory at El Alamein. The light became even brighter with von Paulus' surrender at Stalingrad.
What followed was due in very large measure, on the one hand, to the huge industrial capacity of the USA now geared up to war production to fill the requirements of its huge numbers of fighting men.
On the other hand, the USSR, now geared up to war production in the East (they even had a town called Tankograd) and with a much better and more professional army than that which faced the invaders in 1941, with overwhelming capacity to replace their losses, made steady inroads on the Eastern Front.
EVERY nation did its bit but to pretend that any other nation could match the manpower and industrial muscle of the USA and USSR is not credible.

[Lord Gort]

True Caldric, the American people in general were very reluctant to enter the war (and rightly so). Once in it they became the most ruthless and intolerant. Critics and doubters were persecuted, Japanese Americans placed in appalling conditions. Since the security of the continental United States was not at stake the americans had to treat the war exlusivly as a moral cursade. They insisted more strongly than anyone else that they were entirly in the right, and the Germans and Japanese entirley in the wrong.

The United States was already committed to the allied side. At first the US tried to keep strictly neutral, banks were instructed not to give beligerants credit. Soon businessmen complaiend that the chance for huge profits were being lost. Large funds were exteneded to Great Britain including military equipment. Copper, cotton, wheat, rifles, planes, and tanks poured acorss the Atlantic. Factories worked overtime on British orders. The economy boomed. If the German submarines stopped this trade, there would be depression, crisis. If Great Britian fell, the american loans would be lost also. Caldric, remember i said, to an extent, at no point have i said i believe this to be the main reason for Americas entry.



Sorry Landser i ahve no nostalgia for my empire, history teaches here in my great island nation to lament what should be lamented and to celebrate what should be celebrated.

The chip may have been on the shoulders of the odler generations but not on mine. I live in a state that thankfully punches afr above its weight on the world stage, Great Britain has this strange amount of influence, by virtue of its historical distinction, skilled diplomacy and versatile military forces.

I will leave you with a quote from a speech i recently made, i will leave you with the last section,

But is Britain a "nation in decline"? I don't think so. Britain is a nation that is evolving, changing hopefully for the better. It's becoming multi-cultural in a way that it hasn't been before and people should be proud of this change and realize that it is only possible in a strong democracy with an immense cultural heritage to draw upon, with a people never forgeting what it is to be British by keeping faith with the best traditions in our long history, a history which tied together social justice with bloody minded liberty. We must never mistake our patriotism for Nostalgia . We need to move on from the past whilst still remembering it, and if in the end our history reveals itself to be patriot then I don&#8217;t think any of us will mind one bit.

regards,

[Musashi]

Hi Musashi
I'm new here and am replying to your earlier posting "What about the Polish soldiers?"
Indeed, last September, I saw the graves of General Sosabowski's boys in Oosterbeek cemetery. This contains, in all, a total of 1,700 graves of those who lost their lives at Arnhem and Oosterbeek.

Hi Colbro!
I think the dropping of Polish 1st Independent Airborne Brigade was too late. The Polish paratroopers were dropped when the battle was lost in fact. They couldnt cross the Rhine to help the "Red Devils" from 6th Airborne Division using light dinghies and being under heavy fire. Even Kamikazes wouldn't have crossed Rhine in such conditions. General Sosabowski was one of the best Polish generals, but the British accused him of failure of WHOLE operation after the battle. Has anybody read the book "A bridge too far" of C. Ryan? Do U know how many pages are dedicated for Polish soldiers? About 2 (TWO). And its quite big book............................. .