British Independent Armoured and Tank Brigades '44-'45

[Michael Kenny]

Welsh Gaurds, Holland. There is another pic of one in France but can't lay my hands on it right now.

[James Patrick]

Did the 23d Armd Bde in Italy still use Valetines by '45? Did any armd bde's (div or non) use the Comet?

[Andreas]

The Comet was definitely issued before war's end, IIRC to 11th Armoured. No idea about Valentines in Italy. I doubt it - except for specialist applications, such as bridge-layers?

Edit - yep, 11th Armoured:

Here is a picture of one.

According to this website re-equipped in Belgium in January 1945. Delaforce's divisional history IIRC says that the reequipment was halted to move the division to the Meuse as backstop against the Ardennes offensive. So the Comet only saw combat after this had ended.

[James Patrick]

Thanks, Andreas.

Is this correct:
All Tank Bdes (less specialized bde's) had infantry tanks
All Armd Bdes had Sherman/Firefly
22d Armd Bde had Cromwell/Challenger (when Challenger became available)
29th Armd Bde had Comet?

Were all Armd Recce Regts Cromwell/Challenger?
Did Regts in Italy receive any Fireflies/Challengers?

Additionally, Fireflies on an approx 1:4 ratio in Sherman equipped regts. from 1944; Challengers on an approx 1:4 ratio in Cromwell equipped regts. from late 1944.

Fireflies were also used in Cromwell equipped units before the Challenger became available.

I read that in NW Europe, as the war dragged on, the ratio went up to 1:2 for Fireflies to Shermans in a troop. Was it the same for Challengers to Cromwells?

[Andreas]

My take on the matter in brackets.

Thanks, Andreas.

Is this correct:
All Tank Bde's (less specialized bde's) had infantry tanks (Yes)
All Armd Bde's had Sherman/Firefly (no - 22nd AB had Comets in NWE)
22d Armd Bde had Cromwell/Challenger (when Challenger became available) (Maybe - they could have stuck with Fireflies, but then where did the 260 Challengers go? The Recce Rgts require only 48. Not sure.)
29th Armd Bde had Comet? (From 12/44, before it had Shermans)

Were all Armd Recce Regts Cromwell/Challenger? (No, the South Albertas (Reconnaissance Rgt of 4th Canuckian Armoured Division) had Shermans.)
Did Regts in Italy receive any Fireflies/Challengers? (No Challengers, AFAIK, but Fireflies yes)

Fireflies were also used in Cromwell equipped units before the Challenger became available.

I read that in NW Europe, as the war dragged on, the ratio went up to 1:2 for Fireflies to Shermans in a troop. Was it the same for Challengers to Cromwells? (Most likely not)

I think the Challenger is widely regarded as a failure (in the 'nice gun, shame about the tank' kind of failure way), so there would have been less of an incentive to switch more of the very good Cromwells (in terms of the chassis) to the Challenger (which was less maneuverable and had less armour).

[Jon G.]

It would appear that Comets served alongside Cromwells (VIIIs), in about equal numbers. I am however not sure about this.

I don't think the were any Valentines serving in Italy (again, I'd love to be corrected here), but there at least *ought* to be Churchills.

In June 1944, 1st Bn. RTR had 3 Cromwells at its 3 SHQs; each Sq. had 4 troops each of 3 Cromwells and 1 Firefly, corresponding fairly well to the 4:1 ratio.

There were Stuarts (11) and Crusader AA tanks (4) at Regt. HQ, but the AA tanks were withdrawn in late 1944, due to there being no German aircraft to shoot at

I can remember reading about the Firefly that their numbers 'improved as the year [1944] went on', but I forget where!

[James Patrick]

Thanks again, sir.
Would Armoured and Tank Brigades on VE Day look like this:

NW Europe (less 79th Armd Div units)

6Gds, 31, 34 Tank Bdes (Churchills)
1 Cdn, 2 Cdn, 4, 4 Cdn, 5 Gds, 5 Cdn, 8, 10 Polish, 33 Armd Bdes (Fireflies/Shermans)
22, 29 Armd Bdes (Comets/Cromwells)

All British Armd Recce Regts (Cromwells/Challengers or Fireflies)
All Cdn and Polish Armd Recce Regts (Shermans/Fireflies)

Italy

2, 2 Pol, 4 NZ, 11 SA, 16 Pol, 23 (less RSG), 26 Armd Bde (Fireflies/Shermans)

British Armd Recce Regt(s) (?)
Polish Recce Regt (?)

I don't think the were any Valentines serving in Italy (again, I'd love to be corrected here), but there at least *ought* to be Churchills.

I was guessing because the closest I could get was Tunisia and there I read the 23d was equipped with Valentines even though it was an armd bde .

[Andy H]

Both the 31st Army Tank Brigade & 33rd Armoured Brigade were transfereed to the 79th Armoured Division-04/09/44 & 18/01/45 respectively.

Andy H

[Michael Kenny]

But can anyone clear up the number of troops in a Squadron? It seems that the Recce Regs at least had 5 troops of 3/4 tanks instead of 4 troops.
I have seen a letter to a relative of a missing trooper of 8th Hussars saying he was in 5 Troop (June 1944) It also appears that some Regiments grouped their Fireflys in a single troop. I have seen info that confirms this and read in other references it wasn't allowed. The subject seems a bit confusing and I know that 62nd A/T Regiment RA had 17pdr M10's (confirmed by a photo of a knocked out one) despite references saying they had only 75mm models.

[Jon G.]

Hello James,

Thanks again, sir.
Would Armoured and Tank Brigades on VE Day look like this:

NW Europe (less 79th Armd Div units)

6Gds, 31, 34 Tank Bdes (Churchills)
1 Cdn, 2 Cdn, 4, 4 Cdn, 5 Gds, 5 Cdn, 8, 10 Polish, 33 Armd Bdes (Fireflies/Shermans)
22, 29 Armd Bdes (Comets/Cromwells)
(snip!)

Not really answering your question, but rather sampling a single unit. I have this data from Salt's britorg pdf. file on the site I linked to earlier, and he in turn credits Macksey, which should mean accurate info - I am a mere typist here

Orbat is from 4th County of London Yeomanry 'The Sharpshooters'; part of 22nd Armoured Bde.

RHQ with 4 Cromwell VIIs, 6 Crusader AA tanks, recce troop with 11 Stuarts and 9 scout cars (Humbers?)

3 squadrons, each with 2 Cromwell (VIIs?) and 2 Cromwell CS (presumably Cromwell VIII CS) tanks at SHQ.

Each squadron has 4 troops and a heavy troop; 3 Cromwells in each 'ordinary' troop; 3 '17-pounder tanks (must be Fireflies, at this date)' in the heavy troop.

This particular organisation is unusual in having its 17-pounder tanks concentrated in a single troop in each squadron; also the 17-pounder tank:medium tank ratio is lower than the 1:4 ratio I quoted earlier.

This orbat is from July 13th 1944 - according to Salt/Macksey, the regt. had lost 3 'armoured vehicles' on disembarkation; 'A' sq. had lost 2 Cromwells to friendly fire, likewise the regt. had lost a Stuart and a Cromwell on June 10th; and 'C' sq. had lost a full troop on the 11th - whether it's June or July is not clear.

This unit was so badly shot up at Villers-Bocage that it was withdrawn on July 29th and replaced by the 5th Royal Inniskilling Dragoon Guards. I assume that this regiment had Cromwells, too, and maybe also a higher proportion of Fireflies. The 27th (independent) armoured brigade was withdrawn on the same day; possibly a certain transfer of vehicles took place?

Again quoting from Salt's paper, 4th/7th Dragoon Guards had just 5 Sherman VCs on D-Day, all of them concentrated in 'A' squadron. The proportion of Fireflies increased from only 10% on D-Day to 50%-60% at the end of the war.

Clearly, the 1:4 ratio should be taken strictly as a rule of thumb.

I don't think the were any Valentines serving in Italy (again, I'd love to be corrected here), but there at least *ought* to be Churchills.

I was guessing because the closest I could get was Tunisia and there I read the 23d was equipped with Valentines even though it was an armd bde .

I've found mention of Valentines in Tunesia too: Blade Force (with 17th/21st Lancers) is quoted as having Valentines (2 pdrs) and Crusaders (6 pdrs. and CS tanks) in November 1943, but this must be a typo. The author must have meant 1942! I doubt very much if any of these tanks would have made it across to Italy; odds are they were replaced with Shermans, which could explain why it was called an armoured bde? Just a guess, though.

[Michael Kenny]

4th CLY must be one of the better documented Regiments and at the time of Villers Bocage the Firefly's seem to have been at the rate of 1 per troop. 1 squadron was 4 troops (3 Cromwell and 1Firefly) and 3 Cromwells in the HQ (1 Squadron is therefore 15 Cromwells and 4 Firefly)
The whole of 'A' Squadron was lost on 13/6/44.
As you can now see the orginisation of British tank Units of the time is far from clear.
1st RTR keep extremely detailed records of its tanks and on 6/6/44:

A Squadron had,

4 Troops (3 Crom/1 Firefly) + HQ of 3 Crom.

B Squadron had,

4 Troops ( 3 Crom/1 firefly x3, 4 Crom x1)+ HQ of 3 Crom.

C Squadron had,

4 Troops (3 Crom/1 Fireflyx3, 4 Cromx1) + HQ of 3 Crom.

10 Stuarts and 4 Diamler A/C and a RHQ Troop.

[James Patrick]

Thanks for the TO&Es, Michael.

[Jon G.]

4th CLY must be one of the better documented Regiments and at the time of Villers Bocage the Firefly's seem to have been at the rate of 1 per troop. 1 squadron was 4 troops (3 Cromwell and 1Firefly) and 3 Cromwells in the HQ (1 Squadron is therefore 15 Cromwells and 4 Firefly)
The whole of 'A' Squadron was lost on 13/6/44.

Not that I necessarily disagree with you. But Salt (and by extension Macksey) does somewhat. It seems that this particular regiment preferred to concentrate its Fireflies in a single troop in each squadron, either because there were not enough Fireflies available to give one to each troop, or because it was thought desirable to concentrate this asset.

So the scout cars were Daimlers? I stated Humbers, as a simple guess.

Could you please state your sources? Not that I would take Salt/Macksey as absolute canon, but his org. is *very* detailed.

Would your source be able to give us the TO&E for the 5th Royal Inniskillings on July 29th?

As you can now see the orginisation of British tank Units of the time is far from clear.

Now, that's understatement

[Michael Kenny]

I got the listing for 1st RTR from Les Dinning (a well know vet from this Unit) but I have seen it on the Net somewhere. The Regiment kept very detailed listings of its tanks and even include the 'T' number from each tank (and some dates of loss and the replacement tank number). It is a useful tool and with this info I was able to ID a photo of a knocked out Cromwell and pass the info to Les. The grave of one of the crew was beside the tank.
.
The Cromwell is T190024 from 'C' Squadron, Troop 1 knocked out 25/7/44.
There is a photo of 4th CLY exiting the beach on 7/6/44 and one troop of 'A' Squadron is seen with 1 Firefly and 3 Cromwells as a group. However when 'B' Squadron entered Villers on 13/6/44 2 Firefly's were stationed together inside the town so maybe they were concentrated together? For some while now I have been trying to find out if it was 4 or 5 Troops per Squadron but the info says both!

[Michael Kenny]

A smaller version of 1st RTR's listing from B T Whites 'British Tank Markings And Names' AAP 1978 (and since republished several times)
Note they disagree on the make of scout cars but I think Les Dinning knows best!