4RTR Tanks

Discussions on all aspects of the The United Kingdom & its Empire and Commonwealth during the Inter-War era and Second World War. Hosted by Andy H
Tom from Cornwall
Member
Posts: 2902
Joined: 01 May 2006 19:52
Location: UK

Re: 4RTR Tanks

Post by Tom from Cornwall » 23 Jul 2010 20:39

JBond wrote,

It's not that difficult since there should only be a choice of one. Infantry Tank Mk.II. Mk. I never went to the desert, Mk. III did not arrive until later, and was not issued to 4 RTR in 1941, AFAIK.
So they could only be Matilda MkIIA then. :) Thanks for putting me right. :oops: I was assuming that there was another source that Jentz had found that told him exactly what mark of tank was issued, I've even seen the serial numbers in some books, although I can't imagine they would have been entered into war diaries (they certainly weren't by 1944 - or not in any of the ones that I've seen at the National Archives).

Regards

Tom

User avatar
David W
Member
Posts: 3507
Joined: 28 Mar 2004 01:30
Location: Devon, England

Re: 4RTR Tanks

Post by David W » 24 Jul 2010 01:34

I've not got it Tom. It's on my wish list though.

Tom from Cornwall
Member
Posts: 2902
Joined: 01 May 2006 19:52
Location: UK

Re: 4RTR Tanks

Post by Tom from Cornwall » 30 Jul 2010 18:02

David,

Ordered Bryan Perrett's "Valentine in North Africa" book from local library and have just picked it up. Unfortunately for your research into 4 RTR it is purely concerned with the operations of 23 Armoured Brigade and mainly seems to cover their disastrous first attack during the 1st Battle of Alamein, then subsequent ops in North Africa. BTW it looks very interesting! Sorry to disappoint, perhaps when I next go back to Kew I could have a look through the 1942 war diary for you if you give us a list of questions. Plan is to go in Oct/Nov after my next exam.

Regards

Tom

User avatar
David W
Member
Posts: 3507
Joined: 28 Mar 2004 01:30
Location: Devon, England

Re: 4RTR Tanks

Post by David W » 31 Jul 2010 00:23

Tom.

I think I'll order a copy from my local library too!

Thanks again for the offer re Kew, it's appreciated.

User avatar
Urmel
Member
Posts: 4624
Joined: 25 Aug 2008 09:34
Location: The late JBond

Re: 4RTR Tanks

Post by Urmel » 29 Sep 2010 13:12

JBond wrote:David

There is conflicting information, but in any case I am sure they did not reunite in Dec. 40 but much later, since B Squadron was busy in Eritrea until spring. I am not sure they even participated in Battleaxe. They were sent to Tobruk between July and October I believe, with A Lighters reported to carry 48 heavy tanks in this period.



The 4 RTR website suggests they did not arrive in Egypt until 16 February 1941.

http://www.4rtr.com/

http://www.ian.a.paterson.btinternet.co ... r.htm#4RTR
8th Army reports actually state that 52 'I' tanks were shipped into Tobruk during this period. No idea how to explain the discrepancy.
The enemy had superiority in numbers, his tanks were more heavily armoured, they had larger calibre guns with nearly twice the effective range of ours, and their telescopes were superior. 5 RTR 19/11/41

The CRUSADER Project - The Winter Battle 1941/42

User avatar
David W
Member
Posts: 3507
Joined: 28 Mar 2004 01:30
Location: Devon, England

Re: 4RTR Tanks

Post by David W » 30 Sep 2010 00:04

"Curiouser & curiouser" said Alice!

User avatar
Urmel
Member
Posts: 4624
Joined: 25 Aug 2008 09:34
Location: The late JBond

Re: 4RTR Tanks

Post by Urmel » 09 Oct 2010 11:35

Bryan Perrett in 'Through Mud and Through Blood' states that there was a troop of 4 RTR in Tobruk when the siege began in April 41, and their tanks were taken over by 'D' Squadron 7 RTR when those arrived in the fortress.
The enemy had superiority in numbers, his tanks were more heavily armoured, they had larger calibre guns with nearly twice the effective range of ours, and their telescopes were superior. 5 RTR 19/11/41

The CRUSADER Project - The Winter Battle 1941/42

Tom from Cornwall
Member
Posts: 2902
Joined: 01 May 2006 19:52
Location: UK

Re: 4RTR Tanks

Post by Tom from Cornwall » 11 Nov 2010 20:53

David W,

Are you still looking for the date on which 4 RTR received its first Valentines?

rgds
Tom

User avatar
David W
Member
Posts: 3507
Joined: 28 Mar 2004 01:30
Location: Devon, England

Re: 4RTR Tanks

Post by David W » 12 Nov 2010 00:51

Tom,

I am! Whaddayouknow?

All the best, David.

Tom from Cornwall
Member
Posts: 2902
Joined: 01 May 2006 19:52
Location: UK

Re: 4RTR Tanks

Post by Tom from Cornwall » 12 Nov 2010 16:45

David W,

I've got a cunning plan to get to National Archives for a while next Tuesday. Will see what I can find in 4 RTR war diary for 1942.

Do you know when they definitely had them by? So I can narrow down search to before then, if pressed for time.

Regards

Tom

User avatar
Urmel
Member
Posts: 4624
Joined: 25 Aug 2008 09:34
Location: The late JBond

Re: 4RTR Tanks

Post by Urmel » 12 Nov 2010 19:03

According to this they had them by May 42:

http://forum.axishistory.com/viewtopic. ... +of+battle

My guess is that they converted type when they moved back to the Delta after CRUSADER.
The enemy had superiority in numbers, his tanks were more heavily armoured, they had larger calibre guns with nearly twice the effective range of ours, and their telescopes were superior. 5 RTR 19/11/41

The CRUSADER Project - The Winter Battle 1941/42

Tom from Cornwall
Member
Posts: 2902
Joined: 01 May 2006 19:52
Location: UK

Re: 4RTR Tanks

Post by Tom from Cornwall » 12 Nov 2010 20:25

Cheers, that should save some time! 8-)

Tom

User avatar
David W
Member
Posts: 3507
Joined: 28 Mar 2004 01:30
Location: Devon, England

Re: 4RTR Tanks

Post by David W » 13 Nov 2010 00:45

Agreed.

I have them present in May 1942.

I trust that your cunning plan will succeed (My Lord!) :wink:

Thanks for remembering me.

Best wishes,
David.

Tom from Cornwall
Member
Posts: 2902
Joined: 01 May 2006 19:52
Location: UK

Re: 4RTR Tanks

Post by Tom from Cornwall » 13 Nov 2010 21:42

David W,

I'll look at WO169/4507 - WD for 4 RTR but it only seems to be for Jan - Apr 42, but if they had the Valentines in May I guess they would have received them during this period. Hopefully anyway!

Regards

Tom

User avatar
David W
Member
Posts: 3507
Joined: 28 Mar 2004 01:30
Location: Devon, England

Re: 4RTR Tanks

Post by David W » 14 Nov 2010 01:18

Ta muchly. :)

Return to “The United Kingdom & its Empire and Commonwealth 1919-45”