4RTR Tanks

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Tom from Cornwall
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Re: 4RTR Tanks

Post by Tom from Cornwall » 16 Nov 2010 19:10

Information on 4 RTR Valentine deliveries:

Source: WO169/4507 – 4 RTR Jan – Apr 42

1 February 1942
The Battalion has been warned that it was to be re-equipped with Valentines. No training equipment available in connection with this type of tank.

12 February 1942
3 Valentines rec’d Mark III.

15 March 1942
5 Valentine II are received.

17 March 1942
3 Valentine II are received.

20 March 1942
8 Valentine II are received.

21 March 1942
2 Valentine II are received.

30 March 1942
5 Valentine II are received.

1 April 1942
3 Valentine II Tanks received.

2 April 1942
1 Valentine II Tank received.

3 April 1942
3 Valentine II Tanks received.

4 April 1942
7 Valentine II Tanks received.

11 April 1942
1 Valentine IV Tank received.
1 Valentine II Tank received.

12 April 1942
9 Valentine IV tanks received.

Which if I can count makes a total of 51 Valentine tanks which sounds about right.

Interestingly the file also contained a series of what seemed to be action photos - lots of moody shots of the desert with smoke on the horizon. They only contained one recognisable tank, which was a Stuart T28004. They are in plastic wrappers which made them almost impossible to copy which is a shame, I wonder if they are copies of photos in IWM?

Regards

Tom

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David W
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Re: 4RTR Tanks

Post by David W » 16 Nov 2010 20:53

Tom from Cornwall, you're a star! :)

Thanks Tom! :D
Interestingly the file also contained a series of what seemed to be action photos - lots of moody shots of the desert with smoke on the horizon. They only contained one recognisable tank, which was a Stuart T28004
Was it a 4 RTR tank???

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Urmel
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Re: 4RTR Tanks

Post by Urmel » 16 Nov 2010 21:26

I wonder when these shots were taken...

Thanks for the pointer, I'll call that doc when I am at the PRO next.
The enemy had superiority in numbers, his tanks were more heavily armoured, they had larger calibre guns with nearly twice the effective range of ours, and their telescopes were superior. 5 RTR 19/11/41

The CRUSADER Project - The Winter Battle 1941/42

Tom from Cornwall
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Re: 4RTR Tanks

Post by Tom from Cornwall » 16 Nov 2010 21:39

Was it 4 RTR?

Don't know, none of the photos seemed to show a unit serial number. :(

But the crews had RTR badges, and it was in their War Diary so I guess they must have been 4 RTR. Maybe Tank Museum could help, or someone who recognises the T number. Unfortunately the photo came out really badly, might ask them to copy them next time. See if they get any better results.



Hope to go back to Archives in New Year. Any other questions I can help with?

Regards

Tom

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Urmel
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Re: 4RTR Tanks

Post by Urmel » 16 Nov 2010 21:57

Bring a camera, and take pictures of the pictures. Much better than the copies.

It could have been an HQ or RA FO tank?
The enemy had superiority in numbers, his tanks were more heavily armoured, they had larger calibre guns with nearly twice the effective range of ours, and their telescopes were superior. 5 RTR 19/11/41

The CRUSADER Project - The Winter Battle 1941/42

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David W
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Re: 4RTR Tanks

Post by David W » 16 Nov 2010 22:06

Hope to go back to Archives in New Year. Any other questions I can help with?
Loads!! But I hope to get most of them answered here. But I dare say that there will be some "sticky" ones that you can look into if you have the time. Thanks again very much for this & the future offer. :)

Tom from Cornwall
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Re: 4RTR Tanks

Post by Tom from Cornwall » 16 Nov 2010 22:38

JBond,

Took photos but they came out crap!!

Have tried to post one of blurry photos here, but it didn't work. Will try again tomorrow!

Regards

Tom

P.S. At least one of the photos showed a Stuart with a Square with HQ sign on its turret, is that from a sqn HQ?

regards

Tom

valentine III
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Re: 4RTR Tanks

Post by valentine III » 07 Mar 2023 20:17

Sorry to resurrect this old thread but it does seem that most Infantry tank regiments in NA, and 4 th RTR in concrete, did not use the CS version of the Matilda Tank: Matilda II CS. I have seen some pictures of at least one Matilda CS destroyed near some Valentines in NA but I think it belonged to the 23rd armoured Brigade and was knocked out during the fateful attack on July 1942.
Was it that the only regiments that came to NA with their Matilda CS's were the ones with 23rd (in fact if I'm not wrong from the 24th AB as most of their own had been sunk (?) or sent to other units (?) ?.
As far as I know, there were not Matilda CS before nor for Operation Splendour (Halam Halfa) nor Alamein the third Battle.

Do you know if I'm wrong? Thanks

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Re: 4RTR Tanks

Post by Alanmccoubrey » 07 Mar 2023 20:24

That is odd as I understood that even the Valentine equipped regiments used the Matilda CS.
Alan

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Re: 4RTR Tanks

Post by valentine III » 13 Mar 2023 12:42

Maybe, but I've only been able to trace the ones used by 23rd Armoured Brigade during "Splendour". Not earlier nor afterwards

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Urmel
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Re: 4RTR Tanks

Post by Urmel » 13 Mar 2023 17:30

I've just had a cursory look into 4, 8, 42 and 44 RTR war diaries during CRUSADER, couldn't find any reference to CS tanks.
The enemy had superiority in numbers, his tanks were more heavily armoured, they had larger calibre guns with nearly twice the effective range of ours, and their telescopes were superior. 5 RTR 19/11/41

The CRUSADER Project - The Winter Battle 1941/42

Tom from Cornwall
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Re: 4RTR Tanks

Post by Tom from Cornwall » 13 Mar 2023 17:32

No I agree, although I've got the 1941 war diary for 8 RTR and they seem to have been sent some Matilda after severe losses to their Valentine numbers during Crusader. I don't know if they refer to CS versions though - did they have a specific way of being referenced? Or would the diary just call them CS?

I'll post up the details when I get a bit of time.

Regards

Tom

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Urmel
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Re: 4RTR Tanks

Post by Urmel » 14 Mar 2023 04:07

Normally they would be referenced CS, in the cruiser regiments at least. But in all the war diaries I looked at for CRUSADER they just note "I" tanks and "lt" tanks.
The enemy had superiority in numbers, his tanks were more heavily armoured, they had larger calibre guns with nearly twice the effective range of ours, and their telescopes were superior. 5 RTR 19/11/41

The CRUSADER Project - The Winter Battle 1941/42

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