BELGIAN T-13 & T-15

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narwan
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Re: BELGIAN T-13 & T-15

Post by narwan » 27 May 2012 13:58

Found something!

http://ablhistoryforum.be/viewtopic.php?f=21&t=2845

According the post in the link its taken from a paper by Andre Bikar on the T13 company of the PFN.


The following distribution of T13's on 10th of may 1940 appears:

"AUGUSTUS 1939 - 83 T13
8 stuks elk bij 1ChA, 2ChA en 3ChA
2 stuks elk bij 4ChA, 5ChA en 6ChA
14 stuks bij Bon CyF Lim
35 stuks bij het 1CyF en 2CyF (6 oude Vickers Mark VI incluis)
4 stuks bij de Cie T13 van de Versterkte Positie Luik

Het doel van Landsverdediging was om 333 voertuigen te ontplooien. Dit aantal werd nooit gehaald:

10 MEI 1940 - 239 T13
8 stuks elk bij 1ChA en 3ChA
16 stuks bij 2ChA
14 stuks bij Bon CyF Lim
12 stuks bij 1CyF
10 stuks bij 2CyF (waarvan 6 Vickers Mark VI)
9 stuks bij de Cie T13 CyF
12 stuks bij de Cie T13 Vesterkte Positie Luik
12 stuks bij de Cie T13 Vesterkte Positie Namen
7 stuks elk bij 1G, 3L, 1JP
4 stuks elk bij 1L, 2L en 2JP
4 stuks bij de beide Lichte Regimenten (één per groep)
12 stuks elk voor de Cie T13 van de 1ste, 2de, 3de, 4de, 7de, 8ste, 9de en 10de infanteriedivisies
5 stuks bij de Cie T13 van de 11de infanteriedivisie
0 stuks bij de Cie T13 van de 12de infanteriedivisie"



There are some discrepancies as he doesn't list the platoons in the 5 DI and 6 DI nor the full company in the 11 DI. Numbers for some other units are also slightly different. But he does list a total of 14 T13's with the Limbourg battallion of the border cyclsists! They might have had a separate company after all, or they had T13 sections attached to the companies... ??

daveh
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Re: BELGIAN T-13 & T-15

Post by daveh » 27 May 2012 18:44

Are you sure that the border cyclists had companies of 12 vehicles?
http://www.clham.org/050351.htm#LES%20C ... -FRONTIERE
LES CYCLISTES-FRONTIERE
10 mai 1940, PREMIERS A FAIRE FACE
by André ALEXANDRE

When describing the organisation of the Regiment says
La 8ème compagnie comprend 12 T13

so the regimental T13 companies have 12 T13. No details are given for the Brigade level T13 company though 12 as well seems likely.

No mention is made of the Carden Loyd vehicles in either the organisation or equipment sections of the article. Therefore we cannot put these vehicles in the CyF regiments or brigade.

JBbelgium
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Re: BELGIAN T-13 & T-15

Post by JBbelgium » 17 Jul 2012 11:00

It looks like some of the T15's definitely had an AA FM30: http://18daagseveldtocht.wikispaces.com ... nse+Jagers
There a picture here that gives a good view on the T15. That frontal armour looks pretty sloped, about 45° from vertical or more?

daveh
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Re: BELGIAN T-13 & T-15

Post by daveh » 18 Jul 2012 05:35

Brossel's post on Tue Mar 06, 2007 8:59 pm in this link notes
Some T15 had a support on the turret for a FN-Browning FM-30 automatic rifle, for the anti aircraft defence. It is not known if all T15 were fitted with that support.


The photo mentioned by JBbelgium above shows an AA MG fitted, this is the only example i have seen after a brief search.

The following pics show a vertical post topped by a ball mount on the top of the T15s turret (some with a soldiers hand on it). Could this be for the AA MG?.

http://i70.photobucket.com/albums/i84/G ... 5side2.jpg

http://i317.photobucket.com/albums/mm38 ... C00251.jpg

http://i65.servimg.com/u/f65/13/65/48/94/t15c10.jpg

http://forum.axishistory.com/download/f ... ?id=205017

http://forum.axishistory.com/download/f ... ?id=205016

http://forum.axishistory.com/download/f ... ?id=205013

http://i65.servimg.com/u/f65/13/65/48/94/t15b10.jpg

not all T15s had this fitting
http://forum.axishistory.com/download/f ... ?id=201107

daveh
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Re: BELGIAN T-13 & T-15

Post by daveh » 19 Jul 2012 12:22

plan of T15
T15plan.png
from
Other Axis and Allied A F V by G Bradford
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JBbelgium
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Re: BELGIAN T-13 & T-15

Post by JBbelgium » 22 Jul 2012 15:05

I just had an idea about the AA-MG. Perhaps the FM30 mg's were removed and used to equip other troops as the army grew larger due to the mobilisation. Active and 1st reserve divisions used them + cavalry and chasseurs ardennais (?) + more in the fortresses + in the T13. It looks like there were few to spare.

JBbelgium
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Re: BELGIAN T-13 & T-15

Post by JBbelgium » 22 Jul 2012 15:11

Does anyone have an idea about the anti-tank performance of the 13.2mm MG from the T15. I have read that it would be able to pierce light armour. (panzer I and alike).
Would it be better/worse than other similar guns as the
20mm kmk30 from panzer II
15mm Besa gun from Vickers mark VIc

YAN
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Re: BELGIAN T-13 & T-15

Post by YAN » 23 Jul 2012 13:20

I have the stats for the 13.2mm Hotchkiss 1930 H.M.G. mounted on French AFVs, the 13.2mm mounted on the T-15 was the same weapon:

13.2mm Hotchkiss 1930 H.M.G.
Elevation: -12° to +14°
Cartridge: AP 52g
Magazine: 30 Rounds
Max Range: 6.500m
Muzzle Velocity: 800 m/s
Rate of Fire: 450 r.p.m.
AP Capabilities: 8mm @ 500m @ 30 degrees

20mm KwK 30 Gun
14mm @ 500m @ 30 degrees

15mm Besa HMG
15mm @ 457m @ 30 degrees

One other point concerning Belgian Armour, did the T-13 B1 & B2 have the same Armour as the B3?
I have this for the B3:
Armour:
Hull Front: 6mm
Hull Sides: 6mm
Hull Rear: 6mm
Hull Roof: 4mm
Hull Bottom: 4mm
Turret Front: 9mm
Turret Sides: 9mm
Turret Rear: 9mm
Turret Roof: 4mm

But nothing for the B1 or B2.

Yan.

daveh
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Re: BELGIAN T-13 & T-15

Post by daveh » 23 Jul 2012 17:19

Great info Yan where did you find it?

YAN
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Re: BELGIAN T-13 & T-15

Post by YAN » 24 Jul 2012 10:22

Hi Daveh, the AP stuff came from a site called guns vs armour, the 13.2mm Hotchkiss data came from a French guy from another forum.
Yan.

JBbelgium
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Re: BELGIAN T-13 & T-15

Post by JBbelgium » 25 Jul 2012 17:58

Thanks YAN.

Now something else. The T13 b1 and b2 had a halfopen turret + shields at the front right? Providing more or less 360° armour protection when shooting backwards.
But the T13b3 is very different. So here's my question: Is the turret open at the back? The crewmen are visible through the open turret in all the pictures that I've seen of the b3. Which seems to suggest that it was open unless there's a shield folded down or something.

YAN
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Re: BELGIAN T-13 & T-15

Post by YAN » 26 Jul 2012 10:59

Hi JB. The B-1, B-2 & b-3 all had half turrets, I cannot find any data that suggests that the B-3 had any plating to cover the gun crew from fire if the enemy got behind them (if anyone has any info on crews modifying their own vehicles with extra plating I would be glad to see it) the only difference between the turrets was the fact that the B-3 could fire in any direction, the B-1 & B-2 had to lower the armoured plates to the front and sides to fire 360 degrees, otherwise it could only traverse 120 degrees.

Yan.

daveh
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Re: BELGIAN T-13 & T-15

Post by daveh » 26 Jul 2012 15:21

T13 B2
plan T13 B2.png
T13 B3
plan T13 B3.png
from
1914-1938 Armored Fighting Vehicles (AFV Plans) by G Bradford ISBN-13: 978-0811705684
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JBbelgium
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Re: BELGIAN T-13 & T-15

Post by JBbelgium » 26 Jul 2012 16:06

A halfopen turret as I suspected. Thank you very much. (especially for the sketches)

daveh
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Re: BELGIAN T-13 & T-15

Post by daveh » 26 Jul 2012 20:16

T15 with AA MG
11226.jpg
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