Greek HIH Siderius carriage/gun

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nuyt
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Greek HIH Siderius carriage/gun

Post by nuyt » 20 Jul 2007 13:30

Just like in the case of Portugal, HIH Siderius converted an old field gun for Greece in the early 1930s, 1931-33 to be precise. See:
http://www.network54.com/Forum/330333/t ... nformation

I have no info on type of weapon, but as we know HIH Siderius usually rebuilt Krupp guns, but also in the case of Turkey some 32 Vickers 18pdr.

Does anyone know a strange Greek protoype gun in a museum or does anyone have info on new guns for Greece in the early 1930s or a prototype?

It could of course be a Krupp 9cm just like in the Portuguese case (Greece had these as well), but we cannot be sure. What else could it have been, an old Krupp 75mm or evena Schneider 75mm?

Any info apreciated!

Kind regards,
Nuyt

Idomeneas
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Re: Greek HIH Siderius carriage/gun

Post by Idomeneas » 07 Mar 2008 12:13

Dear Nuyt,
According to the Directorate of History, of the General Staff of the Hellenic Army, after 1923 all field guns available, were of old design and manufacturing, seriously damaged during the battles of the previous years, or in bad condition since they were captured on battle. Their maximum range was limited after the continuous use, but also due to the old carttridge they used. In order to achieve a range of over 6km their crew had to dig the ground for providing an angle of fire, but as a result they were not returning on the previous firing position. During intense use they were facing problems in their smooth operation. Their main advantage though, was the relatively high rate of firing. As a result it was decided to send a Krupp gun, to the Siederius factory in Holland, in order to be modernized, and finally:
It was possible to achieve a 25o angle of fire (without digging) so in this way ranges of 7,5km were achieved.
The barell was secured on the previous angle of fire, after the fire.
By using improved shells, a range of 9km was achieved.
Now about the type of the gun, this was a Krupp 75mm, from which, over 120 units were available in service. Since the Hellenic Army, never ordered Krupp field guns, it is believed that they were captured during the previous confilcts with Bulgaria or Turkey. It is not clear, if the Hellenic Army fianlly adopted the modernization program (I doubt about this) but it clear that 80 of them went under a general repairing program in the military factories of Athens, along with the modification of the chamber that allowed the use of the Schneider ammunition. Finally a modification applied on the optical sights, new blocks were manufactured for those without any and quantities of spare parts were produced.
After that they were fully operational at the beggining of the WW II. Those field guns were used on the fortifications of Metaxas Line, (eastern Macedonia and Thrace front) against the german forces that invaded Greece on April 6, 1941.

Regards,
Idomeneas

nuyt
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Re: Greek HIH Siderius carriage/gun

Post by nuyt » 07 Mar 2008 14:10

Dear Idomenies,

Thank you very much for that info!

So the modification of at least one gun is confirmed.
Is there any chance this piec may have survived?

Kind regards,
Nuyt

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The Edge
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Re: Greek HIH Siderius carriage/gun

Post by The Edge » 07 Mar 2008 15:01

Idomeneas wrote: ...80 of them went under a general repairing program in the military factories of Athens, along with the modification of the chamber that allowed the use of the Schneider ammunition.


Do you have some data for this ammo? For Serbian 75mm Schneider ammo I have two figures, 75x275mm (measured in museum by myself) or 75x280mm (by one Serbian author).

According to one other info, Greek M.1906 Schneider casings were 2mm longer than Serbian M.1907 ones.

Thanks in advance,

Edge / Antic

Idomeneas
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Re: Greek HIH Siderius carriage/gun

Post by Idomeneas » 07 Mar 2008 16:09

Dear Nuyt,

I am sorry, but I really have no clue for a possible survival of that specific piece of modified Krupp gun.

Do you know if Turkish Army had Krupp 75mm field guns in service during the Balkan Wars and WW I? If yes, of what model?
Can anybody help, by verifying that the Bulgarian Army had Krupp 75mm field guns on the same period? If yes of what model?

Dear "The Edge",
I am sorry, but there is no data for the technical specifications of the Schneider 75mm ammunition, in service with the Hellenic Army.

I have a question:
You are reffered on "Greek M.1906 Schneider casings" but the available field guns of the Hellenic Army in service, were M.1908 Schneider 75mm and a handfull of M.1904 & M.1907.
Can anybody help, by verifying that the Bulgarian, Yugoslavian or Turkish Armies, had Schneider 75mm M.1904 or M.1907 field guns in service?

Regards,
Idomeneas

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The Edge
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Re: Greek HIH Siderius carriage/gun

Post by The Edge » 10 Mar 2008 14:36

Idomeneas,

Everywhere I saw, Hellenic Schneider field gun was labelled as M.1906. :roll: Do you have some link to prove this is wrong? (i.e. it's 1908, not 1906)

Balkan states field guns before 1912:
- Bulgaria: Schneider M.1904 (commercial model P.R.)
- Greece: Schneider M.1906 (?) (commercial model P.D.)
- Montenegro: Putilov M.1900 (small number, only 12)
- Romania: Krupp M.1904 & Krupp M.1912 (later purchase, very similar)
- Serbia: Schneider M.1907 (P.D.2) and M.1907A (similar, only lighter)
- Turkey: Krupp M.1904 (plus M.1909 & M.1911 later purchases of same basic design; M.1911 were probably cavalry version)

During First Balkan War many Turkish guns were captured by Balkan allies (and used in later wars).
Turks seized 72 Serbian M.1907A guns in Salonika port 1912 and probably used some of them.
viewtopic.php?f=70&t=136324 (Maybe Greeks also captured any?)
During Second Balkan War Bulgarians lost some of their guns to Serbs & Greeks (probably Romanians too).

World War I - subjest too wide to put it in one article. See my friend Marco work at:
http://forum.boinaslava.net/showthread.php?t=6610

Idomeneas
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Re: Greek HIH Siderius carriage/gun

Post by Idomeneas » 11 Mar 2008 16:55

Dear "The Edge",

The only source I have is the "official" history of the hellenic artillery, edited by the Directorate of Artillery of the General Staff, where it is stated that the Schneider 75mm field purchased in 1910, were of the 1908 model. :?

Can you post any link where it is stated that the hellenic Schneider field guns were labelled as M.1906?

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The Edge
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Re: Greek HIH Siderius carriage/gun

Post by The Edge » 13 Mar 2008 10:39

http://forum.boinaslava.net/showthread. ... ge=3&pp=25 (Entry #56)
http://www.network54.com/Forum/330333/m ... 520/So+far (second on list)

This source claims 36 batteries (144 guns) already in Greece by 1907: (Hmmm... :roll: )
http://sill-www.army.mil/famag/1914/APR ... 12_326.pdf

One Yugoslav military source (1935) calls Greek Schneiders „M.1907“ (but this is probably only due to similarity to Serbian M.1907 model)

As Greece was quite late with purchase of modern small arms, your data (1910 purchase of model selected in 1908) sounds very conceivable. Small quantity available in 1912 also suggests late purchase.

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The Edge
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Re: Greek HIH Siderius carriage/gun

Post by The Edge » 13 Mar 2008 10:50

Btw, you can call me "Edge" without the without quotation marks (this is English translation of my first name). 8-)

Family name is "Antic" (not a translation! :wink: )

Nothing to do with http://baletawwe.blogspot.com/2006/04/e ... eland.html :lol:

Regards,

Edge / Antic

nuyt
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Re: Greek HIH Siderius carriage/gun

Post by nuyt » 16 Mar 2008 14:32

Great info this.

On this website the Greek artillery captured by the Italians is mentioned, including the former Turkish 75mm Krupp guns:
http://www.geocities.com/historyfan2002 ... /itart.htm
So maybe there is a survivor in Italy...?
Interestingly, if these Turkish/Greek HIH modified guns were used in Italy, well, they may have been used side by side the Dutch Army's HIH modified Krupp guns that were sent there by the Germans...

Idomeneas
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Re: Greek HIH Siderius carriage/gun

Post by Idomeneas » 02 Apr 2008 20:22

Dear nuyt,

I recently found an information that Greece and Turkey, exchanged guns, captured from their previously conflicts.
More specifically Greece returned 8 Krupp 75mm field guns, in exchange for 8 Schneider-Danglis 75mm mountain guns.
Obviously this occured after 1930.
Do you have any additional info on this?

Regards,
Idomeneas

nuyt
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Re: Greek HIH Siderius carriage/gun

Post by nuyt » 28 May 2008 23:15

I am sorry I see this only now.

Very interesting, but I have no further info presently...

Kind regards,

Nuyt

nuyt
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Re: Greek HIH Siderius carriage/gun

Post by nuyt » 01 Nov 2008 12:10

Could this be in Greece?
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nuyt
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Re: Greek HIH Siderius carriage/gun

Post by nuyt » 02 Nov 2008 14:50

Seems to be BUlgarian

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