http://www.nuav.net/ndWW2.html under the details given for the German coastal artillery units in Norway notes that
HKB 32/ 977 Forsö (15/ 751 ) was equipped with 4 15.5 cm K 432 (b) (ex-belgian canon de 155 L M-24).
So that's at least 4 canon de 155 L M-24 manufactured.
http://forum.axishistory.com/viewtopic. ... t=+belgian has a list dated 01-03--1944 of Belgium guns still in active service with the German Army and this mentions 8 x 15,5 cm K. 432 (b)
Does anyone have any references to other canon de 155 L M-24 used by the Germans or given to Germany's Allies?
numbers and types of belgian artillery..a new approach?
Re: numbers and types of belgian artillery..a new approach?
re the Danish Madsen 20mm model 1935 used as light AA guns by the Belgian Army:
Anti Aircraft Guns a WW2 Fact File written by P Chamberlain and T Gander states that the Belgians licensed built this gun as the Canon mitrailleur CHM de 20mm modele 1935.
The 20mm Madsen is noted as being used by the Germans having been captured in various countires..including Belgium in their Small Arms, Artillery and Special Weapons of the Third Reich.
This could be the source of the suggested use of 20mm Madsens by the Belgian Army though i have not as yet seen any other evidence for this.
Anti Aircraft Guns a WW2 Fact File written by P Chamberlain and T Gander states that the Belgians licensed built this gun as the Canon mitrailleur CHM de 20mm modele 1935.
The 20mm Madsen is noted as being used by the Germans having been captured in various countires..including Belgium in their Small Arms, Artillery and Special Weapons of the Third Reich.
This could be the source of the suggested use of 20mm Madsens by the Belgian Army though i have not as yet seen any other evidence for this.
Re: numbers and types of belgian artillery..a new approach?
"licence poduction by the Belgians" does not necessarily mean it was used by the Belgian Army, it could have been a commercial venture by FN or any other steelmaker in Wallonia. Cant find any refs in my FN and Cockerill docs so far, though.
Re: numbers and types of belgian artillery..a new approach?
Hello Daveh,
All I can add is that I never heard about a Belgian army unit that was equiped with a 20mm AA gun.
- Don't forget that the Belgian arms industry also produced arms for export.
Like Nuyt said, it is very much possible that one of the Liege arms factories applied for a license to build the 20mm Madsen AA gun for export but this doesn't mean that they actually produced this type of gun.
Cheers,
Peter
All I can add is that I never heard about a Belgian army unit that was equiped with a 20mm AA gun.
- Don't forget that the Belgian arms industry also produced arms for export.
Like Nuyt said, it is very much possible that one of the Liege arms factories applied for a license to build the 20mm Madsen AA gun for export but this doesn't mean that they actually produced this type of gun.
Cheers,
Peter
Re: numbers and types of belgian artillery..a new approach?
Thanks nuyt and peter u
everything we know so far does suggest that the Belgian Army was never equipped with a 20mm AA gun. I have neither seen nor heard of any pics/ references to them apart from in Niehorster.
Does anyone know was there any plan to adopt the 20mm as it was already being manufactured in Belgium?
There is not even a number for a Belgian made Madsen 20mm in lists of weapons captured by the Germans, though they seem not to have given a number to any Madsen identifying its source.
everything we know so far does suggest that the Belgian Army was never equipped with a 20mm AA gun. I have neither seen nor heard of any pics/ references to them apart from in Niehorster.
Does anyone know was there any plan to adopt the 20mm as it was already being manufactured in Belgium?
There is not even a number for a Belgian made Madsen 20mm in lists of weapons captured by the Germans, though they seem not to have given a number to any Madsen identifying its source.
Re: numbers and types of belgian artillery..a new approach?
Maybe it was used on a plane by the airforce?
Only other idea I have that it was intended for export to a country where Madsen itself was inhibited to sell to....?
Only other idea I have that it was intended for export to a country where Madsen itself was inhibited to sell to....?
Re: numbers and types of belgian artillery..a new approach?
Hello Daveh,
- Does anyone know was there any plan to adopt the 20mm as it was already being manufactured in Belgium?
If their was a plan to manufacture that type of gun in Belgium, it most likly was for export.
Cheers,
Peter
- Does anyone know was there any plan to adopt the 20mm as it was already being manufactured in Belgium?
If their was a plan to manufacture that type of gun in Belgium, it most likly was for export.
Cheers,
Peter
Re: numbers and types of belgian artillery..a new approach?
I think I once read that the Artevelde, a military vessel that Belgium was building in 1940, was supposed to receive a few 20mm AA guns.
https://fr.wikipedia.org/wiki/Artevelde
Other than that, I don't think that the Madsen 20mm was used.
https://fr.wikipedia.org/wiki/Artevelde
Other than that, I don't think that the Madsen 20mm was used.
Re: numbers and types of belgian artillery..a new approach?
Eric Simon has written an article entitled
L’«ARTEVELDE» (1939 – 1954)
L’industrie belge offre à la marine son unique contre-torpilleur
in which he gives the planned armament as
L’«ARTEVELDE» (1939 – 1954)
L’industrie belge offre à la marine son unique contre-torpilleur
in which he gives the planned armament as
When completed by the Germans it had 3 x 10.5 cm; 3 x 3.7 cm AA; 10 x 2 cm AAquatre canons de 105 mm montés sur tourelles semi-fermées (blindage de 40 mm), deux canons antiaériens de 40 mm et quatre mitrailleuses antiaériennes de 13,2 mm.
Re: numbers and types of belgian artillery..a new approach?
Hi, this discussion is very interesting...
I'd like to add something: There really were 20 mm cannons in use with the Belgians in 1940, that is in their SABCA S.47 aircraft. What mark and model, I don't know, or if FN produced them under license. If FN did make them, it could be a possible cause of a mix-up in German intel data.
I'd like to add something: There really were 20 mm cannons in use with the Belgians in 1940, that is in their SABCA S.47 aircraft. What mark and model, I don't know, or if FN produced them under license. If FN did make them, it could be a possible cause of a mix-up in German intel data.
Re: numbers and types of belgian artillery..a new approach?
The SABCA S.47 was to have had a French made Hispano-Suiza 20-mm cannon, the HS-404.
This cannon was originally a ground based AA gun but In 1938 an aircraft based version of the HS.404 was produced at the request of the French government. It was installed on a wide range of pre-war French fighter plane designs, notably in installations firing through the propeller shaft of the Hispano-Suiza 12Y engine, a system referred to as a moteur-canon ("engine cannon").
The HS 404 was also to be fitted to other Belgian aircraft e.g. the Renard R36
No operational Belgian aircraft had a 20mm cannon fitted in May 1940.
There was no plan for FN to licence build the HS 404 as far as I am aware.
This cannon was originally a ground based AA gun but In 1938 an aircraft based version of the HS.404 was produced at the request of the French government. It was installed on a wide range of pre-war French fighter plane designs, notably in installations firing through the propeller shaft of the Hispano-Suiza 12Y engine, a system referred to as a moteur-canon ("engine cannon").
The HS 404 was also to be fitted to other Belgian aircraft e.g. the Renard R36
There was no plan for FN to licence build the HS 404 as far as I am aware.
Re: numbers and types of belgian artillery..a new approach?
Thank you! ... Any chance for more 3-view plans like that ^ ?
More questions on the mystery Madsen:
- What CHM stands for in Canon mitrailleur CHM de 20mm modele 1935? I can't figure it out.
- Is it possible that the Madsen was intended for Vickers Command Tank M1938, designed for the Belgian army?
More questions on the mystery Madsen:
- What CHM stands for in Canon mitrailleur CHM de 20mm modele 1935? I can't figure it out.
- Is it possible that the Madsen was intended for Vickers Command Tank M1938, designed for the Belgian army?
Re: numbers and types of belgian artillery..a new approach?
see http://forum.axishistory.com/viewtopic.php?t=156837 for a discussion about various Vickers tanks and the Belgians. The Vickers designed vehicles offered a variety of British (Vickers) weapons but there is no mention of the Madsen.
Sorry can't help with the meaning of CHM.
The drawing showing the armament fittings for the R 36 comes from
http://www.fnar.be/html/R36/R36-03.jpg
and is sadly the only one of this type I have found.
Sorry can't help with the meaning of CHM.
The drawing showing the armament fittings for the R 36 comes from
http://www.fnar.be/html/R36/R36-03.jpg
and is sadly the only one of this type I have found.
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Alexander Taper-Bore
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Re: numbers and types of belgian artillery..a new approach?
The Vickers Command Tanks under construction in Belgium were intended for the Dutch East Indies, not the Belgian Army. And they were to get a 2 pounder.
Re: numbers and types of belgian artillery..a new approach?
Hello to all -
In Trucks & Tanks Magazine (TnT) issue 48, March/April 2015, there is an article “A.B./Mi T15 - L’ersatz de char de l’Armée belge” which has this footnote on Vickers Command tank.
Char de commandement ou successeur ?
En 1937, la firme VIckers-Armstrongs Ltd lance le développement d'un char léger de commandement embarquant trois hommes d'équipage. À cette époque, des prospections menées par le constructeur à l'étranger révèlent en effet que plusieurs petits pays se porteraient volontiers acquéreurs d'un tel engin pour coordonner l'action de leurs chars légers biplaces au niveau de la section, de la compagnie ou du bataillon. Parmi ces acheteurs potentiels figure alors la Belgique qui, en l'occurrence, envisage d'acquérir ce véhicule pour équiper ses escadrons d'autos blindées T13 et T15. En février 1938, l'Armée belge réceptionne ainsi une pour procéder à une série de tests. Ces derniers se révélant concluants, des discussions sont entamées à l'été 1939 au sujet d'une possible production sous licence de l'engin sur le sol belge. Le déclenchement de la Seconde Guerre mondiale en septembre empêchera toutefois ce projet d'aboutir, et le prototype sera finalement rapatrié en Angleterre. D'après l'historien britannique David Fletcher, l'engin livré à l'Armée belge reprenait la base d'un à accueillir une tourelle biplace embarquant un Vickers Light Tank Mk. VI dont le châssis avait été élargi et la suspension renforcée de manière canon antichar Ordnance QF2-Pounder (40 mm). D'autres auteurs ont, quant à eux, avancé que le véhicule fourni à la Belgique était en fait un exemplaire du Vickers Light Tank Model 1937, simple extrapolation du Model 1934 équipée, elle aussi, d'une tourelle dotée d'une pièce antichar de 40 mm. Ce dernier engin aurait alors été pressenti pour remplacer les T15, et une commande de 83 exemplaires aurait même été passée à la fin des années trente. Cette information semble néanmoins peu plausible au regard des importantes dépenses militaires déjà consenties par l'État belge à cette époque. Quoi qu'il en soit, la guerre mettra, là aussi, un terme au projet.
Here is a rough translation.
“In 1937, VIckers-Armstrongs Ltd. launched the development of a light command tank with three man crew. At this time, surveys conducted by the manufacturer had indeed revealed that several small countries would gladly purchase such equipment to coordinate the action of their two-man light tanks on the section, company or battalion level. Among these potential buyers then was Belgium which, in this case, planned to acquire this vehicle for equipping its squadrons of T13s and T15s. In February 1938, the Belgian army received one unit to carry out a series of tests. After their conclusion, discussions were under way in the summer of 1939 about a possible production under license in Belgium. The outbreak of the Second World War in September however prevented this project, and the prototype was eventually repatriated to England. According to the British historian David Fletcher, the piece delivered to the Belgian army had an expanded chassis of the Vickers Light Tank Mk VI with strengthened suspension and accommodated a two-man turret with Ordnance QF 2-Pounder (40 mm) anti-tank gun. Other authors have meanwhile argued that the vehicle was in fact a Vickers Light Tank Model 1937, which was simply an extra-sized Model 1934, with a 40 mm anti-tank gun in the turret. This equipment would then have been chosen to replace the T15, and an order of 83 copies would have been passed already in the late thirties. Nevertheless, this information seems unlikely considering the significant military spending already granted by the Belgian government by this time. In any case, the war would end this project, too.”
Well, I don’t subscribe to their conclusion but I agree that there has been a prototype in tests in Belgium that certainly differed from Model 1937.
In Trucks & Tanks Magazine (TnT) issue 48, March/April 2015, there is an article “A.B./Mi T15 - L’ersatz de char de l’Armée belge” which has this footnote on Vickers Command tank.
Char de commandement ou successeur ?
En 1937, la firme VIckers-Armstrongs Ltd lance le développement d'un char léger de commandement embarquant trois hommes d'équipage. À cette époque, des prospections menées par le constructeur à l'étranger révèlent en effet que plusieurs petits pays se porteraient volontiers acquéreurs d'un tel engin pour coordonner l'action de leurs chars légers biplaces au niveau de la section, de la compagnie ou du bataillon. Parmi ces acheteurs potentiels figure alors la Belgique qui, en l'occurrence, envisage d'acquérir ce véhicule pour équiper ses escadrons d'autos blindées T13 et T15. En février 1938, l'Armée belge réceptionne ainsi une pour procéder à une série de tests. Ces derniers se révélant concluants, des discussions sont entamées à l'été 1939 au sujet d'une possible production sous licence de l'engin sur le sol belge. Le déclenchement de la Seconde Guerre mondiale en septembre empêchera toutefois ce projet d'aboutir, et le prototype sera finalement rapatrié en Angleterre. D'après l'historien britannique David Fletcher, l'engin livré à l'Armée belge reprenait la base d'un à accueillir une tourelle biplace embarquant un Vickers Light Tank Mk. VI dont le châssis avait été élargi et la suspension renforcée de manière canon antichar Ordnance QF2-Pounder (40 mm). D'autres auteurs ont, quant à eux, avancé que le véhicule fourni à la Belgique était en fait un exemplaire du Vickers Light Tank Model 1937, simple extrapolation du Model 1934 équipée, elle aussi, d'une tourelle dotée d'une pièce antichar de 40 mm. Ce dernier engin aurait alors été pressenti pour remplacer les T15, et une commande de 83 exemplaires aurait même été passée à la fin des années trente. Cette information semble néanmoins peu plausible au regard des importantes dépenses militaires déjà consenties par l'État belge à cette époque. Quoi qu'il en soit, la guerre mettra, là aussi, un terme au projet.
Here is a rough translation.
“In 1937, VIckers-Armstrongs Ltd. launched the development of a light command tank with three man crew. At this time, surveys conducted by the manufacturer had indeed revealed that several small countries would gladly purchase such equipment to coordinate the action of their two-man light tanks on the section, company or battalion level. Among these potential buyers then was Belgium which, in this case, planned to acquire this vehicle for equipping its squadrons of T13s and T15s. In February 1938, the Belgian army received one unit to carry out a series of tests. After their conclusion, discussions were under way in the summer of 1939 about a possible production under license in Belgium. The outbreak of the Second World War in September however prevented this project, and the prototype was eventually repatriated to England. According to the British historian David Fletcher, the piece delivered to the Belgian army had an expanded chassis of the Vickers Light Tank Mk VI with strengthened suspension and accommodated a two-man turret with Ordnance QF 2-Pounder (40 mm) anti-tank gun. Other authors have meanwhile argued that the vehicle was in fact a Vickers Light Tank Model 1937, which was simply an extra-sized Model 1934, with a 40 mm anti-tank gun in the turret. This equipment would then have been chosen to replace the T15, and an order of 83 copies would have been passed already in the late thirties. Nevertheless, this information seems unlikely considering the significant military spending already granted by the Belgian government by this time. In any case, the war would end this project, too.”
Well, I don’t subscribe to their conclusion but I agree that there has been a prototype in tests in Belgium that certainly differed from Model 1937.