Belgium's incredible R-36/37/38

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phylo_roadking
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Re: Belgium's incredible R-36/37/38

Post by phylo_roadking » 28 Jun 2008 23:47

and of course changing from the Dutch LVA's 7.9mm FN-Brownings to 7.7mm Brownings.

No Dutch guns nor guns of that caliber were fitted to Finnish Fokker DXXI.
Did I say they were??? The design was for the LVA fitment using 7.9mm FN-Brownings. VL amended the design to mount 7.7mm Brownings for Finnish production and service - Fokker didn't make the changes. What is unclear about what I said?

Actually - the Finnish-built Mercury D.XXI Series I and Series II aircraft - two batches, 14 and 21 - had four Vickers 7.7mm MGs - two in the fuselage, ONE in each wing - but fitting the two-row Twin Wasp meant the fuselage fitment was not longer possible - which is why VL amended the wing fitment to TWO 7.7mm Brownings per wing instead.
Last edited by phylo_roadking on 29 Jun 2008 00:15, edited 2 times in total.

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Re: Belgium's incredible R-36/37/38

Post by phylo_roadking » 28 Jun 2008 23:48

By the way - did VL have a manufacturing licence...or a manfacture and development licence?

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Juha Tompuri
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Re: Belgium's incredible R-36/37/38

Post by Juha Tompuri » 29 Jun 2008 08:11

phylo_roadking wrote:
Nope again.
The the licence production continued, engine type was changed and some improvements were made.
In relation to "VL restarted production on its own after the fall of Holland", what part of "Fokker did the design work on the engine mountings" and "I'm not aware of them doing any of the prototype fabrication work at all, or designing the ancillary changes. This was carried out by VL with no assistance from Fokker after the Fall of Holland" - is unclear?
As I've earlier mentioned there was no re-start at the Fokker manufacturing in Finland.
Yes, after Holland fell Finland didn't have assistance from them,.
Also Finnish assist to Fokker factory ended after that event.

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Re: Belgium's incredible R-36/37/38

Post by Juha Tompuri » 29 Jun 2008 08:24

phylo_roadking wrote:
and of course changing from the Dutch LVA's 7.9mm FN-Brownings to 7.7mm Brownings.

No Dutch guns nor guns of that caliber were fitted to Finnish Fokker DXXI.
Did I say they were??? The design was for the LVA fitment using 7.9mm FN-Brownings. VL amended the design to mount 7.7mm Brownings for Finnish production and service - Fokker didn't make the changes. What is unclear about what I said?
About everything.
VL didn't make the "gun change" from the Dutch guns, it was Fokker factory.


Regards, Juha

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Re: Belgium's incredible R-36/37/38

Post by Juha Tompuri » 29 Jun 2008 10:01

phylo_roadking wrote:By the way - did VL have a manufacturing licence...or a manfacture and development licence?
Finland had a manufacturing licence, and developed the DXXI in co-operation with Fokker factory as long as it was a possibility.

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Re: Belgium's incredible R-36/37/38

Post by phylo_roadking » 29 Jun 2008 15:33

In relation to "VL restarted production on its own after the fall of Holland", what part of "Fokker did the design work on the engine mountings" and "I'm not aware of them doing any of the prototype fabrication work at all, or designing the ancillary changes. This was carried out by VL with no assistance from Fokker after the Fall of Holland" - is unclear?
As I've earlier mentioned there was no re-start at the Fokker manufacturing in Finland.
The last of the Series III mercury-engined aircraft - FR-117 - rolled out of VL before July 27th, 1939, the date it was delivered to service. The Finnish Government ordered the Series IV Wasp-engined aircraft in March 1939 - but William Green has it that production at VL i.e. metal bending - didn't begin until 1940.
Finland had a manufacturing licence, and developed the DXXI in co-operation with Fokker factory as long as it was a possibility
So the work done AFTER May 1940 to the first Series IV aircraft flying in January 1941 was done without a development licence?

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Re: Belgium's incredible R-36/37/38

Post by Juha Tompuri » 29 Jun 2008 22:17

phylo_roadking wrote:
In relation to "VL restarted production on its own after the fall of Holland", what part of "Fokker did the design work on the engine mountings" and "I'm not aware of them doing any of the prototype fabrication work at all, or designing the ancillary changes. This was carried out by VL with no assistance from Fokker after the Fall of Holland" - is unclear?
As I've earlier mentioned there was no re-start at the Fokker manufacturing in Finland.
The last of the Series III mercury-engined aircraft - FR-117 - rolled out of VL before July 27th, 1939, the date it was delivered to service.
No.
The delivery date seems to be late August 1939.
phylo_roadking wrote:The Finnish Government ordered the Series IV Wasp-engined aircraft in March 1939 - but William Green has it that production at VL i.e. metal bending - didn't begin until 1940.
So the new series was orderd to keep production rolling before the earlier series was finished.

phylo_roadking wrote:
Finland had a manufacturing licence, and developed the DXXI in co-operation with Fokker factory as long as it was a possibility
So the work done AFTER May 1940 to the first Series IV aircraft flying in January 1941 was done without a development licence?
AFAIK also work before and during May 1940 was done without any "development licence"
Also remember that the first series IV plane first flew 29th October 1940.

Regards, Juha

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Re: Belgium's incredible R-36/37/38

Post by phylo_roadking » 30 Jun 2008 12:05

Strange - I have delivery dates of between March 16th and July 27th, 1939 to squadrons for the Series III aircraft FR-97 - FR-117. And the January 1941 date in several sources for the first flight of Wasp-engined FR-118.
So the new series was orderd to keep production rolling before the earlier series was finished.
I would actually have thought the Finnish Government ordered the Series IV aicraft because they needed them...

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Re: Belgium's incredible R-36/37/38

Post by Juha Tompuri » 30 Jun 2008 21:52

phylo_roadking wrote:Strange - I have delivery dates of between March 16th and July 27th, 1939 to squadrons for the Series III aircraft FR-97 - FR-117.
I wonder what source(s) you rely on?

Sources like:
Image
http://www.pienoismalli.com/wwhi_92.htm
Suomen Ilmavoimien Historia 3A (History of Finnish AF part 3A) by Keskinen and Stenman (2000) mention the series III delivery dates between 11th April and 25th August 1940.



phylo_roadking wrote:And the January 1941 date in several sources for the first flight of Wasp-engined FR-118.
True is that some older sources of mine too ( from 70's) mention those dates too, but the recent ones, like...
Image (photo of FR-118 just after its maiden flight 29th October 1940)
Valtion lentokonetehtaan historia. Osa 2: Tampereella ja sodissa 1933-1944 (History of State Aircraft Factory part 2: at Tampere and at War 1933-1945) by Jukka Raunio (2007)
...correct that older incorrect info.


phylo_roadking wrote:
So the new series was orderd to keep production rolling before the earlier series was finished.
I would actually have thought the Finnish Government ordered the Series IV aicraft because they needed them...
...about the same thing...


Regards, Juha

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Re: Belgium's incredible R-36/37/38

Post by phylo_roadking » 30 Jun 2008 22:53

Suomen Ilmavoimien Historia 3A (History of Finnish AF part 3A) by Keskinen and Stenman (2000) mention the series III delivery dates between 11th April and 25th August 1940.
True is that some older sources of mine too ( from 70's) mention those dates too
That's probably the answer - given that my figures are from the 1974 single edition of Vol 3, not the later A+B volumes for each individual Mercury/Wasp type.

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Re: Belgium's incredible R-36/37/38

Post by Juha Tompuri » 30 Jun 2008 23:08

phylo_roadking wrote:
Suomen Ilmavoimien Historia 3A (History of Finnish AF part 3A) by Keskinen and Stenman (2000) mention the series III delivery dates between 11th April and 25th August 1940.
True is that some older sources of mine too ( from 70's) mention those dates too
That's probably the answer - given that my figures are from the 1974 single edition of Vol 3, not the later A+B volumes for each individual Mercury/Wasp type.
Hmmm...
My 1974 edition also gives the same delivery dates as the more modern ones: between 11th April and 25th August 1940.

Regards, Juha

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Re: Belgium's incredible R-36/37/38

Post by phylo_roadking » 30 Jun 2008 23:29

A loss in translation? Though I'm working from notes taken ages ago. I sold the book on some time ago.

Hold on - could be my handwriting and spacing - there's a second note here but I didn't think it went with those dates - Fokker D.XXI Talvisodassa, O. Anttonen, Suomen Siivet 2/1969. If you have that it might be worth checking for elimination.

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Re: Belgium's incredible R-36/37/38

Post by Juha Tompuri » 30 Jun 2008 23:52

phylo_roadking wrote:A loss in translation? Though I'm working from notes taken ages ago. I sold the book on some time ago.

Hold on - could be my handwriting and spacing - there's a second note here but I didn't think it went with those dates - Fokker D.XXI Talvisodassa, O. Anttonen, Suomen Siivet 2/1969. If you have that it might be worth checking for elimination.
I happen do have the complete set of Suomen Siivet (Wings of Finland) magazine, but not at that or any other there seems to be anything detailed about the subject.
http://fi.wikipedia.org/wiki/Suomen_Siivet

Or could it just be that you (and your sources, earlier mentioned William Green - etc?) have not understood the things clearly enough?

Regards, Juha

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Re: Belgium's incredible R-36/37/38

Post by phylo_roadking » 14 Apr 2009 02:23

Back to the original topic....

Some pics of the Renard fighters and projects mentioned at the start of this thread.

http://rareaircraf1.greyfalcon.us/BELGIUM.htm

Bessar
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Re: Belgium's incredible R-36/37/38

Post by Bessar » 18 Apr 2009 19:22

Look here also

http://www.fnar.be/

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