was sweden germanys de facto ally?

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pyromaniac
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was sweden germanys de facto ally?

Post by pyromaniac » 20 Jan 2003 08:43

is it true that sweden helped the germans during the war?

JariL
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Yes -and no

Post by JariL » 20 Jan 2003 09:18

Hi,

This is by far not a complete answer.

Sweden helped Germany with trade and also by allowing German ships pass through Swedish waters. There must also have been connections for example between Abwehr and Swedish intelligence organizations. There were also troop transports through Swedish territory. However, Swedish attitude was very much tied to the military and political situation at the time decisions had to be made. When Germany was strong, Swden was more flexible than when Germany was weak.

It should also be rememberred that Western Allied also received valuable information from Sweden. When Swedish Navy spotted Bismarck going out in 1941 (the operation where the ship was lost) the information was past to the British. Also V2 parts from a missile that had "landed" in Southern Sweden were secrretly delivered to Britain.

Sweden was during the whole war between the rock and the hard place. Both Westrn Allied and Germany had means to threaten Sweden (Germany militarily, allied mainly by cancelling Navy certificates). As a consequence Sweden had to find a way of balancing in between. So Germany got iron ore and other materials, western allied got information.

Regards,

Jari

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Post by varjag » 20 Jan 2003 13:29

'Neutrality' - is the most difficult and finely tuned balance act in the world.For a small nation like Sweden - it meant having to chew big slices of Humble Pie dished out liberally by both Germans and Allies. But the experienced Swedish diplomacy - never for a moment lost sight of the aim - to keep Sweden out of the war. Given her geographical position in not only WW2 but also WW 1 - I am of the opinion that they did a superb act on the high wire - and to the benefit of all Swedes - succeeded.

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Madsen
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Post by Madsen » 23 Jan 2003 00:42

Hi Varjag. I think Sweeden could praise their lucky star for the fact that the dont have ice free harours in Bottenviken. If they had that i think germany would invaded Sweeden to.
They was in the beginning of the was strictly Neutral, they even sendt back Norw who escaped from GESTAPO in Norway. But as the war went on they become more and more western oriented and they allowed Norw Gow( Not Nazi gow) to train "police troops" intended for Norway.

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jesper
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Post by jesper » 26 Jan 2003 20:24

That V2 landing in Sweden, do you have any further info as quite new to me. Aware that V1 landed on the island of Bornholm, Denmark, but not in sweden.

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Post by varjag » 28 Jan 2003 13:36

LILLEBROR wrote:Hi Varjag. I think Sweeden could praise their lucky star for the fact that the dont have ice free harours in Bottenviken. If they had that i think germany would invaded Sweeden to.
They was in the beginning of the was strictly Neutral, they even sendt back Norw who escaped from GESTAPO in Norway. But as the war went on they become more and more western oriented and they allowed Norw Gow( Not Nazi gow) to train "police troops" intended for Norway.
Hello LILLEBROR! I think you're wrong about the Baltic. Ice-bound yes, but the 'ice-boundary' was more something cooked up by the insurance companies to protect the ships they covered - than the ability of ice-breakers and ships to get through. When the iron-ore loading viaducts at Narvik had been destroyed in April/May 1940, Sweden was only TOO willing to provide substitutes. At an accelerating pace,once the 'season' began at Luleå, spring 1940 - the ore-viaducts at Luleå in July 1940, tripped an amazing 1,169,400 tonnes or iron ore for Germany. The highest ever achieved. It took until the 1960-ies before Narvik reached that tonnage! AND - you may have forgotten the very considerable tonnage of ore shipped through Oxelösund - which was mainly ice-free or attainable with ice-breaker assistance - and fed by mines in Central Sweden. And yes - of course Norwegian 'police forces' were trained in Sweden. The Swedes could see by then which way the chips were gonn'a fall! Neutrality = a balance act!
Med venlig hilsen fra Australia, Varjag

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Madsen
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Post by Madsen » 29 Jan 2003 02:39

Hei Varjag :D
You're right about that. but the easy and reliable way is over the border to Narvik. In december when i was in Piteå to visit a girl i know ther i heard on the radio that there was ice far to the south. don't you think it would bee enough to look after sub and other enemy's? to ram into ice in the middle of the night is not that fun. i Know that for a fact.
but sweeden dont have any interesting harbours in my opinion.
what germany needed was control over sweeden's ore and ice free harbours for their naval vessel's.

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Ike_FI
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Post by Ike_FI » 29 Jan 2003 22:45

Jesper, here's a picture from the Finnish edition of the book "The Mare's Nest" (Irving 1965); the caption says that the rocket crashed down in souuthern Sweden near city of Malmö on June 13, 1944. Two [metric] tons of debris was sold to GB. In the picture Swedish soldiers are guarding the combustion chamber of the rocket

--
Lillebror & others who might be interested: this map shows realtime ice/water temperature situation at northern Baltic sea:
http://ice.fmi.fi/tilanne2.html
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Post by varjag » 03 Feb 2003 12:07

LILLEBROR - latch on to that girl from Piteå - they're made of 'the right stuff'! I should know - my mum was one of them. As for bashing the ice - you're quite right, I know too (last timber ship out of Archangelsk i Nov/Dec 1956 behind Soviet ice-breaker KRASIN) ! I agree about Swedish harbours - why bother, the Germans had plenty around the Baltic but for all your ice-free iron-ore ports - the 'neutral Swedes' rose to the occasion - and provided all the ore that Germany could ship - despite the iceproblems in the Baltic.

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Madsen
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Post by Madsen » 03 Feb 2003 15:59

My only problem varjag is that she is already ocupied, and in this kind of war it doesn't help to launch a full heavy panzer attack on the enemy :roll: :) (i wish it had been a possibillity :oops: )but she is CUTE like an angel, i drove 600km one way just to see her.

But i still mean that Sweeden was lucky that Norway had the shipping over Narvik and the long ice free coast into atlantic and north sea. if sweeden had the same posibillity i belive they too would bee invaded(and perhaps instead of Norway, who knows)

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Post by hisrtylover » 18 Feb 2003 22:24

Well, its hard to say wether or not the Swedes were allies of Germany. Since you can see Sweden fom Denmark Im guessing they figured" Why not?" Hitler had captured two of Sweden's closest neighbors so Im guesiing they felt pressured to cooperate with the Germans (expecting no support from the Allies since they probably couldnt have given any). well thats what i think tell me what you think.

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Re: Yes -and no

Post by Mark V » 18 Feb 2003 23:44

JariL wrote:Sweden helped Germany with trade and also by allowing German ships pass through Swedish waters.


To be exact Swedish Navy escorted those ships through Swedish territorial waters. Actually Swedish Navy was actively participating war against Soviet submarines from 1941 - but nothing extraordinary on that. They were on large part protecting their own vessels and very important trade between Sweden and Germany.

Regards, Mark V

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Erik E
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Post by Erik E » 18 Feb 2003 23:56

Sweden also shot down several German planes during the war.......

The Norwegian Navy also escorted German ships fom 1939 to 9-4/40.
I think this was a standard procedure for neutral countries....
The Merchant ships were afterall allmost unarmed.....

Erik

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Madsen
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Post by Madsen » 19 Feb 2003 16:13

can't ships from any nation use a neutral port for repearing etc for a period of 24 hours? i think there was some german ships that were stuck in Norway before 9.4 because they was in harbour longer than 24h.
And Sweden had all rights to deal with both germany and england during the war. they was neutral after all. And they also were in full rights to defend their land against every other nation

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Erik E
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Post by Erik E » 19 Feb 2003 23:02

can't ships from any nation use a neutral port for repearing etc for a period of 24 hours?


You must not forget the German Ore freighters prior to 9/4-40.
They followed the coast from Kristiansand to Narvik and back, often under Norwegian protection. Some of these ships were attacked by English planes/ships in Norwegian waters.

What turns the whole ting into a complete mess, is that German uboats patroling the coast sunk Swedish ships bound for England, even it was a neutral ship in neutral waters...... :?

Erik

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