Begian artillery 1940

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daveh
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Re: Begian artillery 1940

Post by daveh » 27 Nov 2011 10:59

I suspect the 9.59 kg figure is a mis type as the figure I have is 6.59kg which is much more in line with the expected weight for a 75mm calibre shell.

The 4.64kg weight of shell for the canon de FRC 76 is because this weapon is in fact an infantry support gun and not a field artillery piece.

Sturm78
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Re: Begian artillery 1940

Post by Sturm78 » 26 Dec 2011 09:32

Hi all,

Does somebody know the models of the guns used by belgians in Eben Emael fortress?
I know only that the guns were of 75 and 120mm.

Does somebody her specifications? Range, ......

Images from Ebay
Thanks in advance. Sturm78
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Sturm78
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Re: Begian artillery 1940

Post by Sturm78 » 29 Dec 2011 10:41

Nobody for my last question?? :(

Here a new image (from Ebay):

Sturm78
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daveh
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Re: Begian artillery 1940

Post by daveh » 30 Dec 2011 22:31

re Eben Emael artillery

120mm cupola guns:
FRC model 31 120mm
Shells:
22kg HE shell. 2.875kg explosive content. contact fuse
20 kg HE shell. 2kg explosive content. airburst
max range 17.5km

75mm in revolving cupola
FRCmodel1934 FRC 75mm
-8 to + 38 degrees
range 10kms
2 HE type rounds
1 canister round

75mm casemated guns

based on Krupp 75mm Model 1905
HE round 8km range, 800gm explosive
HE round 11km range 650gm explosive
canister round

Source
Osprey Fortress 30: Fort Eben Emael

Sturm78
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Re: Begian artillery 1940

Post by Sturm78 » 03 Jan 2012 12:10

Thank you, daveh .

Which are the guns of the the turret images? 75mm or 120mm

Sturm78

Sturm78
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Re: Begian artillery 1940

Post by Sturm78 » 04 Jan 2012 12:47

Hi all,

Another image form Ebay. I think the same gun of my third image of 26 Dec 2011.
According to photocaption Fort Battice but I am not sure

Sturm78
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daveh
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Re: Begian artillery 1940

Post by daveh » 06 Jan 2012 22:35


Sturm78
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Re: Begian artillery 1940

Post by Sturm78 » 08 Jan 2012 19:13

Thank daveh

Regards Sturm78

JBbelgium
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Re: Begian artillery 1940

Post by JBbelgium » 10 Aug 2012 18:39

You can find some original military magazines on this site:
http://www.abbl1940.be/ABBL1940files/AB ... ameset.htm

Le soir illustré nr 7 oktober 1939: L'Armée garde avec vigilance la neutralité de la Belgique
shows a 40mm Bofors AA gun and some kind of 75mm AA gun looks like a pretty modern version. Good parts about the Chasseurs Ardennais and the fortifications as well.

Clive Mortimore
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Re: Begian artillery 1940

Post by Clive Mortimore » 11 Aug 2012 21:10

JBbelgium wrote:You can find some original military magazines on this site:
http://www.abbl1940.be/ABBL1940files/AB ... ameset.htm

Le soir illustré nr 7 oktober 1939: L'Armée garde avec vigilance la neutralité de la Belgique
shows a 40mm Bofors AA gun and some kind of 75mm AA gun looks like a pretty modern version. Good parts about the Chasseurs Ardennais and the fortifications as well.
Thanks for the link, there is a lot to learn from that site.

The 75mm gun is a Ex German WW1 88mm L/45 , the Krupp version. That is first time I have seen a photo of this gun in Belgian service.

Clive
Clive

JBbelgium
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Re: Begian artillery 1940

Post by JBbelgium » 15 Aug 2012 09:23

Hi Clive

I found this in "De veldtocht van het Belgisch leger in 1940" by de Fabribeckers:
'The anti-airdefence was insufficient. We only had
-30 batteries of 4 75mm guns. These were almost all modified German 88mm guns. They were only efficient against aircraft flying at 360 km/h at an altitude of 3000m.
-9 batteries of 40mm Bofors guns for use against low flying aircraft.
- 4 batteries searchlights'

So the modified 88's seems to have been most numerous amongst the 75mm AA-guns. Could this be the C75 DTCA M27 CR or the C75 DTCA M34???

JBbelgium
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Re: Begian artillery 1940

Post by JBbelgium » 06 Sep 2012 17:23

YAN wrote:did any of these weapons have any anti-tank capebilitiy.
I don't know if the artillery guns had AP ammunition but they were used in direct AT fire. I read this in "De veldtocht van het Belgisch Leger in 1940" by de Fabribeckers.
"The Belgian General Staff spread this message among the troops on 24-25 May: Divisioncommanders should not hesitate to complete the anti-tankdefence by placing 75mm cannons in direct firesupport among the infantrylines."

Quite some 47mm AT-guns had been lost/abandoned by this time.

A McAuslan
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Re: Begian artillery 1940

Post by A McAuslan » 29 Sep 2012 13:26

Hi All,
Thanks for all the info provided. I know that the presence of any 20mm weapons has already been discounted but I should be very much obliged if an absolute no could be made especially for the 20mm Madsen Models 1933 and 1935. I have sources - both Peter Chamberlain joint authored - that state 'German forces acquired 20 mm Madsen guns from Czechoslovakia, Poland, Norway, Belgium and France', from Small Arms Artillery and Special Weapons of the Third Reich, and that the Model 1935 was 'licence-built by France and Belgium as the Canon Mitrailleur CHM de 20 mm Modele 1935', from WW2 Fact Files Anti-Aircraft Guns.
On a slightly different matter the turret of Belgian AMC-35 was redesigned from the French version and looks like a two man in the photograph at p231 of Pictorial History of Tanks of the World 1915-1945. If so this would have been a significant improvement over the French model. The co-axial machine gun is in a heavy jacket and so would look like a 'Maxim' but I absolutely accept it was Hotchkiss.
On a third point. The muzzle velocity of the Canon de 47 antichars SA-FRC is quoted as 720 metres per second and barrel length 33.6 calibres. This seems to me to imply a much larger than usual propellent charge and hence a harsh recoil. If that is the case accuracy might be affected adversely and, over the longer term, might degrade as sights etc wander off settings. Can anyone supply any information on the accuracy achieved by the 47?

I am fairly new to this forum and am delighted to see the quantity and quality of the information available.

Cheers All,
Sandy McAuslan. :D

daveh
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Re: Begian artillery 1940

Post by daveh » 30 Sep 2012 10:26

Hello Sandy, I am glad you are finding this Forum useful.

In response to your post

1) All I can repeat is that no 20mm AA guns of any type are noted in any of the TO&E tables I have seen so far.
I have seen no references to any 20mm AA guns of any type being operated in any unit history or account of the 18 day campaign.

As you note sources refer to the 20mm Madsen Model 1935 was licence-built by Belgium.
I have been unable to confirm this, though given the very, very limited information I have on Belgian arms production this may not be of any significance.
It has been suggested elsewhere in discussions on this point that any such production may have been solely for export. This would resolve the problem of there being Belgian 20mm Madsens but there being none in the Belgian Army.


2) The Belgian ACG-1 had an APX2B turret which was indeed a 2 man turret. This turret was a French APX 2 turret modified to Belgian requirements. This original French design was already a 2 man turret design.
See
Les Autos Blindes Lourdes du Corps de Cavalerie Belge 1940 by Georges E Mazy in Histoire de Guerre, Blindés & Matériel, N°84
for a very interesting article discussing the ACG-1 and its APX-2B turret.

3) I have no accuracy figures for the Belgian Canon de 47 antichars SA-FRC.
However the following data may be of interest:
The French Canon de 47mm L/50 Mle1937 has a muzzle velocity of 855 m/s and David Lehmann on
http://forum.axishistory.com/viewtopic. ... 5&t=154362 gives this piece the following data
Accuracy : 65 x 150cm at 1,600m and 41 x 63cm at 1,000m.

A McAuslan
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Re: Begian artillery 1940

Post by A McAuslan » 30 Sep 2012 17:50

Hi Dave,
Thanks.
1. Probably the Germans knew of the position with respect to the Madsens since apparently they had no reporting designation for it.
2. Thanks for the source I will try to access it.
3. I was aware thet the French gun was extremely accurate. My concern was that, with the charge necessary to produce the m.v. in 33.6 calibres instead of the 50 calibres of the French weapon, the recoil might be ferocious and impact on the accuracy. So far as I am aware the Belgian gun had no muzzle break to modify the recoil - though the use of a muzzle break was known to the FRC and they employed one in the 75 mm AA gun. I would speculate that the blast deflected by a muzzle break would have been unwelcome since it might expose the position of the gun. Thanks, however, for your information and I shall keep on looking.
Cheers,
Sandy McAuslan

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