Yugoslave artillery 1941

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YAN
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Re: Yugoslave artillery 1941

Post by YAN » 12 Sep 2013 15:28

Good afternoon Lt. Colonel. If the Yugoslav Army used 75mm 1897 Shells they could have been these.

The Polish had AP and Semi-AP Shell for their 75mm Wz.1897 Field Guns;
Wz. 1910 AP Shell (6.4 kg)
A.L. R/2 Semi-AP Shell (7.980 kg)

The French developed a round called the APHE 10M for their Canon de 75 mle 1897 modifie 1933.

I don’t have much data on Czech 8cm shells, all I really have is this;

8cm Kanon Vz.17;
Shell Weight: HE 6.64 kg
Muzzle Velocity: 500 m/s
Maximum Range: 10.500m

8cm Kanon Vz.30;
Shell Weight: HE 8 kg
Muzzle Velocity: 600 m/s
Maximum Range: 13.500m

Yan.

aca_p
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Re: Yugoslave artillery 1941

Post by aca_p » 12 Sep 2013 15:36

anybody has the info about the number of mortars Yugo Royal army had in spring 1941?

anybody knows how many AT guns were assigned to the first line army troops in spring '41 and how many to the replacement/fortress troops?

ltcolonel
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Re: Yugoslave artillery 1941

Post by ltcolonel » 12 Sep 2013 16:41

Yan, good afternoon.
By the April 1940. Yugoslav Army hadn't any AP shell in calibre 75 mm. Only semi AP M 28 (or halfpiercing as I mistakenly wrote). In April 1940 Yugoslav Army got a lot of different weapons from France (tanks Renault R-35, etc). Obtained and ammunition especially AP Shell 37 mm for short tanks guns on Renault FT, Reanult M28 and Renault R-35. It is possible that in that time from French arrived and AP shells 75 mm but I have no written evidence.

ltcolonel
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Re: Yugoslave artillery 1941

Post by ltcolonel » 12 Sep 2013 22:42

From Range table
field gun 8 cm M28
semi - PC shell M28
weight 10,80 kg
range 11700 m

HE M28
weight 10,80 kg
range 13100 m

shrapnel M28
weight 10,80 kg
range 12500 m

Vo 600 m/s for all

YAN
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Re: Yugoslave artillery 1941

Post by YAN » 13 Sep 2013 15:13

Thank you Lt. Colonel, splendid work.

Aca if you say that the totals are high then I don’t know how many Mortars or ATGs were issued to the Yugoslav Troops, all I can work off are the totals I have.
37mm M.39 ATG: Total = 400
47mm M.36 ATG: Total = 412
75mm M.16 Mortar
81mm M.31 Mortar
Total = 700
90mm M.17 Mortar: Total = 1.600

Another way of finding out any numbers could be from captured German sources;
3.7cm Pak 156(j)
4.7cm Pak 179(j)
7.5cm Gr.W 329(j)
8.14cm Gr.W 270(j)
9cm Gr.W 309(j)

Yan.

ltcolonel
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Re: Yugoslave artillery 1941

Post by ltcolonel » 13 Sep 2013 15:49

Yan, first sorry for my English, is not good enough. German delivery of weapons to Yugoslavia by October 1940 are not in dispute but after that the mighty things are unclear. In order to obtain the Yugoslav Germans have delivered a lot of weapons out of signed contracts. That's the problem.

Nebojsa

YAN
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Re: Yugoslave artillery 1941

Post by YAN » 13 Sep 2013 19:41

Good evening Lt. Colonel, I think I didn’t make myself clear in my last post.
What I should have said was weapons captured by the German Army after the invasion of Yugoslavia. The German Army use to use any weapons the captured off any nation it defeated, so a full list would have been made of what weapons it captured from each nation it invaded.

And by the way your English is very good my friend.

Yan.

YAN
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Re: Yugoslave artillery 1941

Post by YAN » 13 Sep 2013 19:49

Aca, I have read somewhere that the in 1935 Yugoslav cabinet approved a deal in which they bought 300 81mm Mortars from the French plus 90.000 rounds of ammo. And then then Yugoslavia started building their own under license.

Yan.

ltcolonel
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Re: Yugoslave artillery 1941

Post by ltcolonel » 13 Sep 2013 23:29

Yan, you're right. Yugoslavia had bought 300 mortar from France and purchased a license. What is not clear is how many of these mortars produced by the April 1941. Even the official data are different. In any case, at least 1.000 were produced and probably much more.

ltcolonel
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Re: Yugoslave artillery 1941

Post by ltcolonel » 13 Sep 2013 23:43

Some of my texts from military history, on Serbianbut with English summary.

Acquisition of aviation material from Czechoslovakia for the air forces of the navy and the army of the Kingdom of Yugoslavia.
http://www.academia.edu/2075103/Acquisi ... Yugoslavia_-_

Military-technical cooperation between the Kingdom of Yugoslavia and USA
http://www.academia.edu/2075100/Militar ... ia_and_USA_-_

Military-technical cooperation between the Polish Republic and the Kingdom of Yugoslavia
http://www.academia.edu/2075096/Militar ... Yugoslavia_-_-_

PURCHASE OF WEAPONS FROM WEIMAR GERMANY FOR THE ARMY OF KINGDOM OF SCS/YUGOSLAVIA, Vesnik vojnog muzeja 38, Beograd 2011, 143 - 166
http://www.academia.edu/4342873/_-_Nebo ... _143_-_166

FIGHTER AIRCRAFTS OF KINGDOM OF SCS/YUGOSLAVIA UNTIL 1930’s, Vesnik vojnog muzeja 39, Beograd 2012, 229 - 253
http://www.academia.edu/4342881/_20._-_ ... _229_-_253

aca_p
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Re: Yugoslave artillery 1941

Post by aca_p » 17 Sep 2013 09:55

regarding the number of new mortars:
I looked at the original tables of organization for infantry at the central military library (at military academy now) (from 1936 with updates up to '41) and the inf. regiments had just 4 new mortars... each replacement battalion had one, some probably assigned to the fortress troops, ~40 to each of 2 alpine brigades all that is 600-700 maybe 800...

if army in spring '41 really had 1000+ new mortars than a lot of them were at storage or some were added to the combat units ad hoc, without the tables of organization update....

not sure if some light mortars (46mm?) were added ad hoc also...

aca

aca_p
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Re: Yugoslave artillery 1941

Post by aca_p » 17 Sep 2013 10:13

ltcolonel, thanks for posting these papers...

I read also you paper about the AA defense before and during the april '41 war from aerosvet (posted on mycity military...), it didn't have bibliography, wondering if (while doing that research) you found somewhere "Uredba o formaciji Vazdusne odbrane" (or parts of it) with the tables of organization.

the tables of organization of new ~75mm M36, M37 AA motorized guns would be specially interesting...
from what I understand we had 120 of those new guns. you mention in you paper that 108 were assigned to army (2 battalions to the supreme command (probably units 101. and 102.) and 7 to armies. remaining 12 assigned to the replacement troops?

there is an org chart with summary for the AA battalion with M28 AA guns in the military encyclopedia, not sure what sources they used...

aca

YAN
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Re: Yugoslave artillery 1941

Post by YAN » 18 Sep 2013 14:00

Lt. Colonel, was the 4.7cm M.1938 Anti-Tank Gun the same Gun that was mounted on the T-32 (Skoda T-3) Assault Gun?
Here are the stats;

Škoda 47mm A-9J Tank Gun
Calibre: 47mm L/43.4
Elevation: -10° to +25°
Traverse: 15°
Weight: 420 kg
Barrel Length: 2.040mm
Muzzle Velocity;
AP: 782 m/s
HE: 660 m/s
Shell Weight;
AP: 2.6 kg
HE: 2.79 kg
Rate of Fire: 12 r.p.m.
Effective AP Range: 1.500m
Maximum HE Range: 4.000m
Armour Penetration;
48mm @ 500m @ 30°
41mm @ 1000m @ 30°
35mm @ 1.500m @ 30°

4.7cm M.1938 Gun
Year: 1938
Type: Light Anti-Tank Gun
Origin & Make: Czech/ Škoda Vzor 38
Calibre: 47mm L/43.4
Barrel Length: 2.04m
Length of Weapon: m ?
Carriage: Split Trail
Elevation: -8° to +26°
Traverse: 50°
Breech: ?
Shell Weight;
AP 1.44 kg
HE kg ?
Muzzle Velocity: 775 m/s
Weight in Action: 590 kg.
Rate of Fire: 12 rpm
Armour Penetration: 41mm @ 500m @ 30°
Maximum AP Range: ?
Maximum HE Range: 4000m
Crew: 4
Traction: Horse Drawn

The shell weights are different, and I don’t have all the data on the M.1938, that’s why I have left a ? in places.

Yan.

YAN
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Re: Yugoslave artillery 1941

Post by YAN » 18 Sep 2013 14:08

Aca, those 46mm Mortars must have come from Poland, because Poland was the only country I know of that used such a Light Calibre.
46mm Wz.36 Mortar

There were two more countries with similar types of Light Mortar;

Italy = 45mm Brixia
Sweden = 47mm m/40 Light Mortar

Yan.

ltcolonel
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Re: Yugoslave artillery 1941

Post by ltcolonel » 23 Sep 2013 21:17

For gun 47 mm M 38 (vzor 38) data from range table from 1940
AP vz. 36 weight 1,65 kg
Muzzle Velocity: 775 m/s
Weight in Action: 570 kg

data from Yugoslav manual from 1948 (Soviet tests in 1942) Jacob de Marre relation K-2400
Armour Penetration:
49 mm @ 100m @ 30°
44 mm @ 300m @ 30°
39 mm @ 500m @ 30°
29 mm @ 1000m @ 30°

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