Yugoslave artillery 1941

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Dili
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Re: Yugoslave artillery 1941

Post by Dili » 26 Jun 2009 14:58

Hehe!
However, waiting would be revarding...
That sounds tasty :P

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The Edge
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Re: Yugoslave artillery 1941

Post by The Edge » 29 Jun 2009 07:57

Finally, after a rather eventful weekend (junior-high re-union :D , etc.), there is the stuff I promised.

Yan, this is the Yugoslav 1935 artillery data - max. ranges for standard artillery weapons:


65mm L/21 Schneider M.6
(range 5.5 km with 4.5 kg HE shell)
(range 5 km with 5.15 kg shrapnel shell)
75mm L/15 Skoda M.15
(range 7.1 km with 6.5 kg HE shell)
(range 7 km with 6.6 kg HE-shrapnel shell)
75mm L/18 Skoda M.28
(range 8.7 km with 6.3 kg HE shell)
(range 8.5 km with 6.3 kg shrapnel shell)
75mm L/25.4 Schneider M.12
(range 7.5 km with 5.5 kg HE shell)
(range 6.5 km with 7.24 kg shrapnel shell)
80mm L/30 AZF Wien M.5/8
(range 8.4 km with 5.5 kg HE shell)
(range 7.3 km with 5.65 kg shrapnel shell)
80mm L/40 Skoda M.28
(range 13.1 km with 8 kg HE shell)
(range 12.5 km with 8 kg shrapnel shell)
(also AA & AP shells, all of them 8 kg weight!)
100mm L/19.3 Skoda M.14 & L/20 Skoda M.16
(range 7.4 km with 16 kg HE shell)
(range 8.1 km with 13.5 kg HE shell)
(range 8 km with 13.5 kg HE-shrapnel shell)
100mm L/25 Skoda M.28
(range 10.7 km with 16 kg HE shell)
105mm L/28.5 Schneider M.13
(range 10.6 km with 17.9 kg shrapnel shell)
(range 12.3 km with 15.45 kg HE shell)
105mm L/35 Skoda M.15/26
(range 13.9 km with 19.5 kg shrapnel shell)
(range 15.67 km with 15.6 kg HE shell)
150mm L/14 Skoda M.14/16
(range 8.4 km with 42 kg HE shell)
(range 8.2 km with 42 kg HE/shrapnel shell)
150mm L/47 Skoda M.28 (range 23.8 km with 56 kg HE shell)
155mm L/15 Skoda M.17
(range 11.2 km with 42.8 kg HE shell)
(range 9.5 km with 43.4 kg shrapnel shell)
220mm L/20 Skoda M.28
(range 14.2 km with 128 kg HE shell)
305mm L/12 Skoda M.16
(range 11.1 km with 380 kg AP shell)
(range 12.3 km with 287 kg HE shell)
(range 12.3 km with 300 kg HE/shrapnel shell)
305mm L/10 Skoda M.11/30 (range 11 km with 287 kg HE shell) :wink:

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The Edge
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Re: Yugoslave artillery 1941

Post by The Edge » 29 Jun 2009 08:04

Dili,

Yugoslav divisions were far from „fixed structures“. It could include 3 to 4 regiments, its regiments 3 to 4 battalions, all depending on available resources. Since most of Yugoslav terrain was kinda of mountain type, “field” infantry divisions had one battalion of mountain guns in its artillery regiment type. Some war-time divisions in plains regions, however, didn’t include mountain artillery, only field guns and lt. howitzers, i.e. „plains“ type (“pure field” one); however, since only a few divisions had such arrangement, this classification was highly informal. There were also a number of infantry divisions with higher proportion of mountain guns and mountain-type lt. howitzers, formally regarded as mountain type infantry divisions (three peace-time divisions, plus similar number of war-time ones).
Yugoslav Army inherited Serbian practice of rotating the units inside divisions. Some Serbian soldiers spent whole WWI in the same regiment, but during this time they belonged to at least three divisions and various “army detachments”. When WWII started, lot of recruits found themselves in regiments they never heard of (with ridiculously high numbers like 121 or 128) in divisions that names sounds „familiar“, but non-existing in peacetime (so the soldier from „Jadran“ division military district could suddenly found himself in 119th regiment of „Dinara“ division).
Yugoslav Army in general chronically lacked funds and transportation equipment. Roads were poor, railways network insufficient, communications equipment usually non-existent (except telephones), so most of divisions had starting wartime location near their mobilization regions. So, if you are soldier of Hercegovina division, you might expect that your division would be of mountain type (since your mobilization region is Zeta division), put at the front facing Italians on (former) Albanian border. If you are soldier of Osijek division, you might expect that your division is „field“ type, so you would be position somewhere near Hungarian border; however, if your peace-time artillery regiment (two field gun battalions) is strengthened with two reserve battalions with light howitzers, your division would turn into “plains” type. (Other, war-time division from the same military district – Slavonija – thus would became standard “filed” one)
This is for the start of the war only, however – if (theoretically speaking) the war became „Italy only“ affair, Osijek division could be shifted to front somewhere in Slovenia, Dalmatia or Montenegro. After reaching this destination, division would not be with the same structure as initially formed – at least one of its regiments would be left behind, so one (or two) regiments would be added from the Army reserves at the front. Same would happen to artillery – one or two battalions would be left, same number added by the Army it is subordinated (so the division artillery regiment would revert to „field“ type). In similar fashion, one „mountain type“ division could easily became „field“ one, as local situation or resources dictate.
As a general rule, peacetime artillery regiment in plains region contained mostly field artillery in their “reserve battalion” depot, similar one in mountainous regions had mostly mountain guns, and artillery regiments from “in-between” areas had the standard ratio of field/mountain artillery - so when mobilization came, they would produce wartime artillery regiments according to local resources. When wartime artillery regiment changed the theatre of operations, it was modified according to new circumstances.

Examples: (peace-time organization, 1928)

Morava Division district (“field” type)
10th Artillery regiment in Nish
-1st /field guns/ arty battalion – Nish (3 batteries)
-2nd /field guns/ arty battalion – Nish (2 batteries)
26th Artillery regiment in Nish
-4th /field lt. howitzers/ arty battalion – Nish (3 batteries)
-5th /mountain guns/ arty Battalion - Pirot (3 batteries)
Note: all divisions accept three

Zeta Division district (“mountain” type)
8th Artillery regiment – Podgorica
-1st /mountain guns/ arty battalion - Podgorica (3 batteries)
-2nd /mountain guns/ arty battalion – Focha (2 batteries)
24th Artillery Regiment – Trebinje
-4th /mnt. lt. howitzers/ arty battalion – Trebinje (3 batteries)
-5th /field guns/ arty Battalion - Sarajevo (3 batteries)
Note: two such divisions – Zeta & Jadran
Drava division was unique: two field guns battalions, one mountain guns, one mountain lt. howitzer battalion! (It could be counted also as mountain type, because its reserve battalions had mostly mountain guns, later used for two specialized “mountain detachements”)

Also, note that mobilization period for artillery units were considerably longer then for infantry ones, so when war started, Yugoslav divisions had incomplete artillery regiments of 6 to 9 batteries. (Since AT guns were artillery also, many divisions also lacked its ATG company – so they have almost nothing to fight tanks!)

Regards,
Edge / Antic

nuyt
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Re: Yugoslave artillery 1941

Post by nuyt » 29 Jun 2009 10:17

Excellent work The Edge!

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The Edge
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Re: Yugoslave artillery 1941

Post by The Edge » 29 Jun 2009 11:06

More (for Yan) - 80mm M.28 field gun HAD armour-piercing granades! 8O The text, however, puts little attention to this round (also 8 kg shell weight), no armour-piercing data, so I suspect this is some kind of "semi-armour piercing" round, designed not to fight tanks but to penetrate the ceilings of reinforced infantry positions (similarly to French ALR2 round, used by Yugoslav Army with Mle 1897 guns until the early 1930s) Similar rounds existed for 15-cm howitzers and 15-cm long guns.

As I understood, two "heavy" motorized arty regiments used M.36 series Skoda guns (101st & 102nd) plus Guards Arty regiment (probable structure: one long guns battalion (two batteries) 105mm guns, two md. howitzers battalions (also two batteries each) 150mm howitzers).
Three heavy motorized arty regiments (111st, 112nd, 114th) had M.1928 series ordnances (20 x 150mm guns, 10 x 220 mm hv. howitzers) plus 305mm mortars (10). Structure - my estimation - three battalions, two batteries of two guns each. (With some guns in reserve / repair shops).

Dili, your posted tables about 1941 YU Army effectives is full of incorrect data (including the locations on the map). For example, there weren't "Senta", "Sombor" and "Banat" divisions - these were "army detachements" (brigade sized, 4 to six inf. battalions, 3 to 4 arty batteries). In case of "Senta" , "Sombor" and "Subotica" (this one is missing on the list) detachments, they each had two regiments of fortress/garisson troops plus some artillery taken from "Potiska" division or Army independant arty batallions (medium artillery) - this division acted as their mobile reserve/strengtening, since these detachements defended large frontier towns.
One interesting table as bonus: Yugoslav Army 1939 peace-time organization (5 armies, 16 inf. divisions, 2 coastal defense commands) - Yugoslav Military Encyclopedia
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Last edited by The Edge on 29 Jun 2009 12:30, edited 1 time in total.

YAN
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Re: Yugoslave artillery 1941

Post by YAN » 29 Jun 2009 11:35

I agree with Nuyt, brilliant stuff, thanks Edge.
Yan.

Dili
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Re: Yugoslave artillery 1941

Post by Dili » 29 Jun 2009 15:44

Like other have said excelent stuff!

"your posted tables about 1941 YU Army effectives is full of incorrect data (including the locations on the map)."

I am interested in corrections! :lol: i know some of that units were misidentified, but i had hope location were correct.

------
I have 113 Heavy Regiment in my list but you didn't refered it. It did existed? I also have refences to a 1st and 3rd Heavy Motorised Artillery Regiment, the first in 4th Army and the 3rd in 5th Army along with 113 Heavy Regiment.

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The Edge
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Re: Yugoslave artillery 1941

Post by The Edge » 30 Jun 2009 08:06

Dili wrote: I have 113 Heavy Regiment in my list but you didn't refered it. It did existed? I also have refences to a 1st and 3rd Heavy Motorised Artillery Regiment, the first in 4th Army and the 3rd in 5th Army along with 113 Heavy Regiment.
Yes, 113th is strangely missing. Probably it did existed (Yugoslavs were not superstitious, there was "13th" regiments, both infantry and artillery). Maybe it was put on "hold" during mobilization, since there were already so many new units (Amongst other things, Yugoslav Army lacked enough officers for more "specialized" work); also only 40 heavy weapons - with some probably not operational (M.1928 towing vehicles were rather old) - is kinda low quantity for 4 regiments.

About the Army heavy regiments - they were surely intended to be motorised. The guns were not designed for such towing (I doubt that Yugoslav industry was capable for adequate modifications), but they could be towed on newly made trolleys, in similar way Italians did with the same models of guns (thay could be produced). Problem was artillery tractors, capable of towing 3.5-ton class weapons - I don't know of such vehicles, except already used Skoda 6x6 (for M.36 ordnances). So, withot more data or photos, I'm dubious about mentioned artillery regiments.

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The Edge
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Re: Yugoslave artillery 1941

Post by The Edge » 30 Jun 2009 08:14

Dili wrote: "your posted tables about 1941 YU Army effectives is full of incorrect data (including the locations on the map)."

I am interested in corrections! :lol: i know some of that units were misidentified, but i had hope location were correct.
I'll try to work this out for tomorrow. :D

For units in "status 2" there should be two locations - part of division still in mobilization area (awaiting to complete this work & transportation to be provided) and part of division that reached the planed war location. Examples: Shumadia, Bosna, Una, Lika divisions.

Dili
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Re: Yugoslave artillery 1941

Post by Dili » 30 Jun 2009 14:42

Okay, that makes sense. Thanks. Check my PM, maybe it will help.

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Re: Yugoslave artillery 1941

Post by The Edge » 01 Jul 2009 07:54

Yugoslav Army 1941 - Episode I (1st Army Group)

First the map:
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Re: Yugoslave artillery 1941

Post by The Edge » 01 Jul 2009 07:55

1st Army Group
========================================

7th Army
---------------------------------------------------------------------
1 DRAVA Division (Maribor)
2 TRIGLAV Mnt Detachment (Kranj)
3 TRIGLAV Division – majority (Ljubljana)
3a TRIGLAV Division – part (Celje)
3b TRIGLAV Division – part (Kochevje)
4 RISNJAK Mnt Detachment (Delnice)
5 LIKA Detachment (Lika Region)
+ 6 Border Defense (Fortress) Regiments in sectors I, II, III, IV & V

4th Army
----------------------------------------------------------------------
6 MURA Division (Varazhdin)
6a ORMOZH Detachment (Prekomurje Region)
7 SAVA Division (Koprivnica)
8a SLAVONIA Division – majority (Bjelovar)
8b SLAVONIA Division – part (Slavonska Pozhega)
8c SLAVONIA Division – part (Podravska Slatina)
(Including) 3 Reserve Inf. Regiments, acting as garrison troops

1st Army Group Reserve:
---------------------------------------------------------------------
1st Cavalry Division
9a Majority of division, incl. 6th Cavalry Rgm (Zagreb)
9b 2nd Cavalry Rgm (Virovitica)
9c 8th Cavalry Rgm (Chakovec)
+ one Infantry Regiment (Zagreb) - 127th :roll: (more likely one from Sava Division)
+ one Independent Hv. Arty Battalion (Zagreb)

For additional info: (but use it with reserve)
http://www.vojska.net/eng/world-war-2/k ... /1941/#1AG

Little comments of mine:

Both „Triglav“ and „Slavonia“ were war-time, reserve divisions. Their location, dispersed at 3 regions, means that they were still in mobilization process. War location of Triglav Division should be around Celje (3a), since approach to Ljubljana was well defended by border fortress regiments; location of Slavonska Division should be Virovitica-Podravska Slatina region (9b-8c), with 2nd Cavalry Regiment thus pulled into reserve, to join the majority of 1st Cavalry division (itself still in mobilization process). 8th Cav Rgm should be also pulled from the first line, its location (9c) manned by Ormozh Detachment (defending 6a-9c line).

1st Armored battalion (R-35 tanks) was scheduled to join 4th Army.
Last edited by The Edge on 02 Jul 2009 07:34, edited 1 time in total.

Dili
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Re: Yugoslave artillery 1941

Post by Dili » 01 Jul 2009 16:09

Excellent!

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Re: Yugoslave artillery 1941

Post by The Edge » 02 Jul 2009 07:35

Episode II - 2nd Army Group; First the map
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Re: Yugoslave artillery 1941

Post by The Edge » 02 Jul 2009 07:39

2nd Army Group
===========================================

2nd Army
-------------------------------------------------------------------------
10 VRBAS Division – majority (Banja Luka)
10a VRBAS Division – part (Petrinja)
11 OSIJEK Division – (Osijek / Baranja Region)
12 BOSNA Division - majority (Sarajevo)
12a BOSNA Division – advancing part (Derventa)
12b BOSNA Division – part (Travnik)
+ 1 Border Defense (Fortress) Regiment in sector VII

1st Army
----------------------------------------------------------------------
13 POTISJE Division – majority (Bachka Topola)
13a POTISJE Division - part (Sombor)
13b POTISJE Division - part (Koprivnica)
14 3rd Cavalry Division - majority (area North of Novi Sad)
14a 3rd Cavalry Rgm. of 3rd Cav Division (around Subotica)
15 SENTA Army Detachment (Senta)
15a SUBOTICA Army Detachment (Subotica)
16 SOMBOR Army Detachment (North of Sombor)
+ 6 Border Defense (Fortress) Regiments in sectors VIII, IX, X, XI & XIII

3rd Cavalry Division was scheduled to be "motorized" one.

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