Greek Artillery 1941

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YAN
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Greek Artillery 1941

Post by YAN » 28 Sep 2009 17:03

Hi, I have made a list of Greek artillery from around the time it was attacked by the axis, please see below.

65mmL/20 M.1906 (Schneider) Mountain Gun = 5.500m
75mmL/15 M.1915 (Skoda) Mountain Gun = 7.000m
75mmL/31 M.1904 (Schneider) Field Gun = 5.500m
75mmL/30 M.1905 (Krupp) Field Gun = 6.860m
85mmL/35 M.1925 (Schneider) Field Gun = 15.000m
100mmL/24 M.1914/19 (Skoda) Field Howitzer = 10.000m
105mmL/11 M.1919/28 (Schneider) Field Howitzer = 8.000m
105mmL/28 M.1913 (Schneider) Field Gun = 12.700mm
155mmL/15 M.1917 (Schneider) Medium Howitzer = 11.000m

I think thats the lot, can any please see if there is any errors or any left out, I dont know what quantities the Greeks had of these weapons or if they were all horse drawn.

Thanks Yan.

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Re: Greek Artillery 1941

Post by The Edge » 29 Sep 2009 11:53

YAN wrote:65mmL/20 M.1906 (Schneider) Mountain Gun = 5.500m
75mm L/16.5 M.1906 (Schneider) Mountain gun = cca 5.500m (pre WW1 armament)
75mmL/15 M.1915 (Skoda) Mountain Gun = 7.000m (few guns only)
75mm L/19 M.1919 (Schneider) Mountain gun, cca 9.000m (main mnt. gun type)

75mmL/31 M.1904 (Schneider) Field Gun = 5.500m (wrong year, fit only for capt Bulgarian guns)
75mmL/30 M.1905 (Krupp) Field Gun = 6.860m (ditto)
85mmL/35 M.1925/27 (Schneider) Field Gun = 15.000m
100mmL/24 M.1914/19 (Skoda) Field Howitzer = 10.000m (9600 to 9700m)
105mmL/11 M.1919 (Schneider) Field Howitzer = 8.000m
105mmL/28 M.1913 (Schneider) Field Gun = 12.700mm (mistake - not used)
105mm L/31.5 M.1925/27 (Schneider) Field gun = 15.500m (right type)

155mmL/15 M.1917 (Schneider) Medium Howitzer = 11.000m


This is for the start only - Greek Arty is my favourite subject - more data tomorrow! :D

(Btw - AA & AT guns? :roll: )

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Re: Greek Artillery 1941

Post by YAN » 29 Sep 2009 15:24

Hello Edge, Thanks for your reply, yes I too find Balkan artillery very interesting, I have found some more stuff to look at.

AA:
88mm Flak 18 = 24
80mm Bofors = 4
37 Flak 36 = 54
20mm Flak 30 = 108 (Army + Navy)
13.2mm Hotchkiss = 108

AT:
37mm Pak 36 ATG = 24
14mm Boys ATR = 24

81mm Brandt M.1927/31 Mortars = 323

I dont know if it will match with your info, because its from a source I cant really trust.
Thanks Yan.

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Re: Greek Artillery 1941

Post by The Edge » 30 Sep 2009 08:23

Regarding the artillery of the Hellenic Army in WWII, the following systems were in service:

Heavy Howitzers Schneider Mle 1917 (155mm) 60
Heavy Howitzers Vickers-Armstrong 6’’ (152,4mm) 25
Heavy Howitzers Skoda M.14 (149mm) * 11

Heavy Guns De Bange 1878-1916 (120mm) 6
Heavy Guns Schneider M.1925/27 (105mm) 48
Heavy Guns Krupp (105mm) * 3
Heavy Guns Schneider M.1925/27 (85mm) 48

Mountain Howitzers Schneider Mle 1919 (105mm) 120
Mountain Howitzers Skoda M.1916 (105mm) * 7

Mountain Guns Schneider Mle 1919 (75mm) 192
Mountain Guns Schneider - Danglies M.1908 (75mm) 48
Mountain Guns Skoda M.15 (75mm) * 22
Mountain Guns Puteaux Mle 1906 (65mm) 110

Field Guns Schneider-Canet M.1908 (75mm) 56
Field Guns Schneider M.1907 (75mm) * 4 (Serbian)
Field Guns Schneider M.1904 (75mm) * 20 (Bulgarian)
Field Guns Krupp M.1904-1910 (75mm) * 128 (Turkish)

* Captured during the previous wars from Bulgarians & Turks.
In addition there were additional guns/cannons, captured from previous wars, that were not operational.


Regarding the antiaircraft and antitank artillery of the Hellenic Army, when Italy declared war on October 28, 1940 the following systems were in service:

A/A Artillery:
39 Krupp 88mm (24 Army + 15 Navy)
4 Bofors 80mm (Army)
6 Vickers 76mm (Air Force)
20 Terni ??? 40mm (Navy)
57 Rheinmetall 37mm (54 Army + 3 Navy)
108 Rheinmetall 20mm (Army + Navy)
32 Hotchkiss 13,2mm

A/T Artillery:
24 Rheinmetall ATG (37mm)
24 Boys ATR (14mm)

---------------------------------------------------------------------------------
Data from our member Idomeneas with few modifications of mine

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Re: Greek Artillery 1941

Post by The Edge » 30 Sep 2009 08:27

65mm Infantry guns

Each Greek Infantry Rgm had two 65mm "infantry guns", actually WWI-era French Mle 06 mountain guns


Canon de 65M Mle1906 L/18.5
Caliber: 65x167mmR
Barrel length: 1313 mm (1032 mm rifling)
Weight in action: 400kg (carried by 4 mule packs)
Elevation: -9° to +32°
Traverse: 6°
Rate of fire: 15 rpm
Max Range: 5500 m
V°: 330 m/s
Ammunition:
• 4.45kg canister shell with 138 bulletes
• 3.8kg Mle1910 HE shell (0.5kg explosive)
(Data of French gun from David Lehmann)
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Re: Greek Artillery 1941

Post by The Edge » 30 Sep 2009 08:38

Most interesting gun (for the history standpoint) was Greek "75mm Schneider-Danglies M.1908" mountain gun. It was the modification of Schneider "MPD" commercial model (from 1906), later incorporated into the following models of "MPD" series, commonly known as "Schneider-Danglies Mle 06/09" (Sold to Russia and Romania).
Info: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/75_mm_Schn ... glis_06/09 (Note the wrong gun picture :idea: )


75 mm M.1908 Schneider (M.P.D.)
- Caliber: 75 mm
- Barrel: L/16.7
- Traverse: 5°
- Elevation: -7º 22’ to 19º 50’
- Shell weight: 6.5 kg
- Muzzle velocity: 350 m/s
- Range: 5000 to 5800m
- Weight during combat: 616 kg
- Gun is divided into 6 loads for mnt. transport
(Note that this gun had the shield, missing in all photos due to Italian practise)
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Re: Greek Artillery 1941

Post by The Edge » 30 Sep 2009 08:57

The most important of all models of Greek gun was new Schneider 75mm model 1919. (Greek infantry divisions were actually "Mountain" type; its artillery regiments had two Mnt. guns battalions (two batteries each) and one Mnt. howitzer battalion (also two batteries), making the 75mm mountain guns the backbone of Greek Artillery).
Interesting feature of this gun (as seen on the pictures) was variable mount height, lower for "Gun-mode" (direct fire) and higher for "Howitzer-mode".


Canon de 75M Mle1919 Schneider L/19
Caliber: 75x190mmR
Barrel length: 1405 mm
Barrel weight: 217 kg
Weight in action: 675 kg
Weight during Transport: 721 kg
Elevation: -10° to +40°
Traverse: 10°
Rate of fire: up to 28 rpm
Max Range: 9000 m
Shell weight: 6.5 kg
Muzzle velocity: 400 m/s
Crew : 1 NCO + 6 men
Gun is divided into 6 to 7 loads for mnt. transport
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Re: Greek Artillery 1941

Post by The Edge » 30 Sep 2009 09:15

My favorite Greek gun model was 85mm Schneider one. Very much publicized and token item during 1920s, only the Hellenic Army purchased the gun, becoming its only user (plus the Japanese “adaptation” in 75mm). It was fielded by one artillery battalion of each Corps Hv Arty Rgm. Note that original French gun was produced in 1925, so the Greek model is commonly known as “M.1925/27”.

Schneider M.1927
Caliber: 85 mm
Barrel length: 2 960 mm (L/34.8)
Rifled length: 2 305.5 mm
Weight in action: 1 985 kg
Weight in action: 2 330 kg
Elevation: - 6°do + 65°
Traverse: 54°
Muzzle velocity: (depending on shell type) 550 to 670 m/s
Max. Range: 15 150 m
Shell weight: 8.8/10.0 kg
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Re: Greek Artillery 1941

Post by The Edge » 30 Sep 2009 09:22

Other interesting item was Schneider 105mm gun, improved model over wartime L13S model (with longer barrel, high elevation, split-trail carriage). Again, it was fielded by one artillery battalion of each Corps Hv Arty Rgm. Original French gun was produced in 1925, so the Greek model is commonly known as “M.1925/27” (simply M.1927 for Greeks).

Schneider M.1927
Caliber: 105x390mmR
Barrel length: 3240 mm (L/30.8)
Barrel weight: 936 kg
Weight in action: 3260 kg
Weight during Transport: 3820 kg
Elevation: -3° to +60°
Traverse: 80°
Max Range: 15,500 m
Shell weight: 15.66 kg
Muzzle velocity: 660 m/s
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Re: Greek Artillery 1941

Post by The Edge » 30 Sep 2009 09:31

Howitzer counterpart of Mle 1919 gun was 105mm howitzer. Hellenic army bough this model also, for use in third (howitzer) battalion of divisional arty regiments. However, the number given above is little high (for me), simply 15 div x 8 guns = 120 pcs, specially because no number for 100mm Skoda M.14/19s was given.

Canon de 105M Mle1919 Schneider
Caliber: 105 mm
Barrel length: 1260 mm
Weight in action: 730 kg
Weight during Transport: 750 kg
Elevation: 0° to +60°
Traverse: 5°
Rate of fire: 8 rpm
Max Range: 8000 m
Muzzle Velocity: 300 m/s
Weight of Shell: 12 kg
Crew: 1 NCO + 6 men
Gun is divided into 7 to 8 loads for mnt. transport
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Re: Greek Artillery 1941

Post by The Edge » 30 Sep 2009 09:44

Not mentioned in above list of Greek Artillery, Skoda 100mm M.14/19 was also used, according to both Germans (leFH 318(g)) and Italians (Obice da 100/22 P.B.). I suspect that 120 guns number of light howitzers include both Schneider Mle 1919s and Skoda M.14/19 (Schneider number probably higher). I’m still looking for photo evidence - Vz. 14/19 in Hellenic Army use.

Older Skoda M.16 mountain howitzers was material captured from Turks. Their 105mm caliber was also unique for Turkish guns.


Skoda M.14/19
Caliber: 100x183mmR
Barrel length: 2400 mm (L/24)
Rifled length: 2175 mm
Barrel weight: 430 kg
Weight in action: 1490 kg
Weight during Transport: 2855 kg
Elevation: -7.5° to +48°
Traverse: 5°
Max Range: 9,800 m
Shell weight: 16 kg
Muzzle velocity: 395 m/s
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Re: Greek Artillery 1941

Post by The Edge » 30 Sep 2009 09:50

Heaviest of “modern” guns was 155mm Schneider howitzer. Commercially made for export during 1920s, they differs little from C17S wartime model (note the new wheel pattern). Fielded by third (howitzer) artillery battalion of Corps Hv Arty Rgm. Data is for C17S (from David Lehmann).

Canon de 155mm C (L/15) Mle1917 Schneider
Type: Med. howitzer
Crew: 1 NCO + 7 men
Caliber: 155mm
Barrel length: 2332 mm (1737 mm rifling)
Weight in action: 3300 kg
Elevation: 0° to +42°20'
Traverse: 6°
Ready to fire in 5 minutes
Rate of fire: 2 rpm during 10 minutes or 0.7 rpm in sustained fire
HE Shell
Maximum range: 11,900 m
Projectile weight: 43 – 43.5 kg
V°: 450 m/s
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Re: Greek Artillery 1941

Post by The Edge » 30 Sep 2009 10:10

Hellenic Army was unique in placing a 75mm field guns regiment under Corps command, all of guns used were pre-1914 models. Original model was Greek Schneider M.1908 (bough alonside Schneider-Danglies); these guns were veterans from four wars fought by Greece from 1912 to 22. Unfortunately, I don't have specific data for this model, so I placed data for Serbian M.1907 one (both were part of Schneider "P.D." series; Yugoslav 1935 Army textbook treats them as "same as our M.1907"). Interestingly, Greeks in 1940 also had four ex-Serbian guns (re-captured from either Bulgarians or Turks).

Serbian Schneider-Creusot 75mm M.1907 (P.D.2)
Caliber: 75mm L/31.4
Weight of barrel: 340 kg
Weight in action: 1040 kg
Weight with limber: 1798 kg
Tube Lenght: 2.355 m
Shell Weight: 6.5 kg
Muzzle Velocity: 550 m/s
Max. Range: 5800 m [7300m]
Elevation: + 16° / - 8°
Traverse: 6°
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Re: Greek Artillery 1941

Post by The Edge » 30 Sep 2009 10:16

Most numerous of Greek field guns were captured Turkish 75mm Krupp commercial guns. Turkish models were M.1904 (field artillery) and M.1904/10 (horse artillery model). Data curtesy of our member Adopheit:

Turkish Krupp 75mm M.1904
Calibre: 75mm L/30
Weight of barrel: 348 kg
Weight of the carriage: 644 kg
Weight of the empty limber: 462 kg
Weight with limber: 1754 kg
Weight of ammunition wagon: 1731 kg
Tube Length: 2.250 m
Number of grooves: 28
Shell Weight: 6.35 kg (bursting charge: ? kg)
Shrapnel Weight: 6.35 kg (295 balls x 10 gr - bursting charge: 0.75 kg)
Muzzle Velocity: 500 m/s
Max. Range: 5000m/5900m [8000m]
Elevation: + 15° / - 5°
Traversing angle: 3° 30’ each side
Thickness of shield: 4 mm
Track: 1.48 m
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Re: Greek Artillery 1941

Post by The Edge » 30 Sep 2009 10:20

Hellenic Army also had some captured Bulgarian 75mm Schneider M.1904 commercial guns (P.R.). Interesting fact is that Bulgarian Schneiders deliberately used the same ammo as Turkish Krupps, dissimilar to Greek/Serbian ones. Data curtesy of our member Adopheit:

Bulgarian Schneider-Canet 75mm M.1904 (P.R.)
Calibre : 75mm L/32
Weight : 383.7 kg
Weight without limber: 1016 kg
Weight with limber: 1708 kg
Weight of limber: 710 kg
Weight of ammunition wagon: 1720 kg
Height of line of fire above the ground: 945 mm
Tube Lenght: 2.400 m
Shell Weight: 6.5 kg (bursting charge: 0.8 kg)
Shrapnel Weight: 6.5 kg (294 balls x 10 gr - bursting charge: 0.8 kg)
Shrapnel Fuze : time and percussion
H.E. Shell Weight: 6.5 kg (bursting charge: 0.58 kg Schneiderit)
H.E. Shell Fuze: time and percussion
Muzzle Velocity: 500 m/s (shrapnel)
Range: 5000m/5900m (afterwards increased to 8000 m )
Elevation: + 16° / - 5°
Traversing angle: 3° each side
Thickness of shield: 4 mm
Track: 1.45 m
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