Greek Artillery 1941

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Idomeneas
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Re: Greek Artillery 1941

Post by Idomeneas » 06 Oct 2009 16:14

Hi Edge,

Referring to the 20mm ATR captured by the Italians in N. Africa, I found a description, stating that they were semi-automatic, feeded by a 20 rounds magazine, able to execute one-by-one shoot. They used bipod and were manned by one soldier. They had a satisfactory effeciency to ranges below 600m.

I will try to find more data about the types of Italian captured guns.

Idomeneas

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The Edge
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Re: Greek Artillery 1941

Post by The Edge » 07 Oct 2009 09:40

That sounds like Solothurn S1000 Hv. ATR, used with 20-round magazines from Greek 20mm Rheinmetall AA guns (also based on "Solothurn" design, same ammo 20x138mm) - British probably captured inadequate number of original 5- & 10-round magazines in N. Africa.

Splendid info! :D

nuyt
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Re: Greek Artillery 1941

Post by nuyt » 07 Oct 2009 09:58

Idomeneas wrote:Yia sou nuyt,

I would suggest you to try and search in any turkish document, or archive, because according to some sources the war material that the USA offered to Greece and never received, was actually received by the British and they in turn offered it to Turkey.

About the Siderius project, I have bad and good news. The good news is that I found the time to visit the Directorate of History of the Army in Athens and take a look on their archives. The bad news is that I found nothing. The situation is a little bit chaotic there and even if I was able to search eletronically in scanned documents, the filing method is not helping the searcher, while the personell is not in position to really help on such "sophisticated" issues. According to my experience you need to visit systematically their offices for a period of 1 month, before you have a chance to locate something about this issue. You remember I asked yo if you had any info about the mutual exchange of 8 guns between Greece and Turkey? I also found nothing on this issue.

In any case, I intent to repeat my visit there, and be sure that you will be the first to inform about, in case of a succesfull search.

Idomeneas
Yia sou Idomenias!

Thanks for your feedback! Unfortunately I dont have access to Turkish archives, but I'll try to deduct what material this could have been that had originally been intended for Greece.

Greetings,
Nuyt

YAN
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Re: Greek Artillery 1941

Post by YAN » 07 Oct 2009 15:53

Edge have you got any data on the 105mm m/01 orm/04 Guns, the Norwegian site says that there were 24 in service with the Norwegian army in 1940, with two being motorised with Cletrac tractors (I will have to google them).
the site only gives scant info, calibre L/28, elevation -7 to +20 and traverse 5.
Wiki dose not even mention the gun under Norwegian artillery.
Thanks Yan.

Idomeneas
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Re: Greek Artillery 1941

Post by Idomeneas » 07 Oct 2009 19:21

Dear The Edge,
Details about the guns offered by the British to Greece:
The 21 65mm field guns I listed as captured by the Italians and offered to Greece by the British, were actually 9. They named as Armstrong-Botzoli(?) and were entirely different than those used by the Hellenic Army.
There were 12 65mm field guns, not ex-italian. They were used by the British and were similar to those used by the Hellenic Army, were they named as 65mm Saint-Etienne mountain guns.
It seems that the 18 75mm field guns I included in the previous list, were not captured by the Italians. They were not modern designs and they were not equal to the Schneider or Krupp field guns the Hellenic Army used. The only improvement were the elastic tires on their wheels (maybe from those, USA offered to Great Britain Mle 1897?). It is stated that 32 more were shipped but never arrived in Greece, because the ships carrying them were sunk.
The 50 74mm/27 Krupp field guns were similar with those used by the Hellenic Army

From the ex-italian guns captured by the Greeks in N. Epirus front:
The 42 65mm field guns were named as Armstrong-Botzoli(?) and were entirely different than those used by the Hellenic Army.
The 33 75mm Skoda mountain guns were similar with those used by the Hellenic Army
The 7 149mm Skoda heavy guns they were technical similar with those used by the Hellenic Army, but they were of 149mm and not 150mm as it is stated. Even though it is mentioned that 7 were gathered and sent to Athens for repairs, finally 1 battalion with 2 batteries of 5 guns each, was formed.
From the 15 100mm Skoda light howitzers, the italians had organized 4 of them for field towing and 11 as mountain, towed by special small vehicles.

Idomeneas

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The Edge
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Re: Greek Artillery 1941

Post by The Edge » 08 Oct 2009 08:56

Idomeneas wrote:Details about the guns offered by the British to Greece:
The 21 65mm field guns I listed as captured by the Italians and offered to Greece by the British, were actually 9. They named as Armstrong-Botzoli(?) and were entirely different than those used by the Hellenic Army.
Model: http://www.italie1935-45.com/RE/photosc ... 65-17.html
There were 12 65mm field guns, not ex-italian. They were used by the British and were similar to those used by the Hellenic Army, were they named as 65mm Saint-Etienne mountain guns.
Guns British captured in Syria from Vichy troops - French Mle 06 (same as used by Greeks)
It seems that the 18 75mm field guns I included in the previous list, were not captured by the Italians. They were not modern designs and they were not equal to the Schneider or Krupp field guns the Hellenic Army used. The only improvement were the elastic tires on their wheels (maybe from those, USA offered to Great Britain Mle 1897?). It is stated that 32 more were shipped but never arrived in Greece, because the ships carrying them were sunk.
Hmm... 18+32=50 Land-Leese guns? :roll: (our mysterious FK-267 (g) guns?)
As you mentioned, first 50 and later a total of 100 pcs of 75mm field guns was finally granted for Greece. Two later transports (28+22=50) could be the second 50-gun batch approved?

The 50 74mm/27 Krupp field guns were similar with those used by the Hellenic Army
i.e. both were variations of Krupp 75mm commercial gun design http://www.italie1935-45.com/RE/photosc ... od.06.html

From the ex-italian guns captured by the Greeks in N. Epirus front:
The 42 65mm field guns were named as Armstrong-Botzoli(?) and were entirely different than those used by the Hellenic Army.
(Model 65/17 mentioned above)
The 33 75mm Skoda mountain guns were similar with those used by the Hellenic Army
Same gun type - Skoda M.1915 http://www.italie1935-45.com/RE/photosc ... 75-13.html
The 7 149mm Skoda heavy guns they were technical similar with those used by the Hellenic Army, but they were of 149mm and not 150mm as it is stated. Even though it is mentioned that 7 were gathered and sent to Athens for repairs, finally 1 battalion with 2 batteries of 5 guns each, was formed.
That is a very interesting fact! :D I suspected that Skoda 15-cm howitzers in Hellenic Army use were guns captured from Turks. Since Turkish 15-cm standard was a German one (real caliber 149.7mm) it seems that Skoda M.14 howitzers made for Tukey had German, rather than Austro-Hungarian 15-cm caliber (real caliber 149.1mm). Italian guns were ex-Austro-Hungarian ones, so here is disparity in calibers – 150mm for ex-Turk, 149mm for newly captured Italian ones.
http://www.italie1935-45.com/RE/photosc ... 49-13.html
From the 15 100mm Skoda light howitzers, the Italians had organized 4 of them for field towing and 11 as mountain, towed by special small vehicles.
So, 4 of Obice da 100/22 Modello 14/19 and 11 of eiher 100/22 Modello 16/19 or 100/17 Modello 16 mountain howitzers)

Idomeneas
Now the picture of Greek Artillery in April 1941 is more clear! :D Thanks!

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Re: Greek Artillery 1941

Post by The Edge » 08 Oct 2009 09:16

YAN wrote:Edge have you got any data on the 105mm m/01 orm/04 Guns, the Norwegian site says that there were 24 in service with the Norwegian army in 1940, with two being motorised with Cletrac tractors (I will have to google them).
the site only gives scant info, calibre L/28, elevation -7 to +20 and traverse 5.
Wiki dose not even mention the gun under Norwegian artillery.
Thanks Yan.
I guess you already read this:
( http://hem.fyristorg.com/robertm/norge/ ... rence.html )

10.5 cm mobil posisjonskanon m/01 & m/04

In 1901 eight 10.5 cm guns (system Schneider-Canet) were bought, and in 1904 18 similar guns (system Cockerill-Nordenfeldt) were bought. They were called "mobil posisjonskanon" (mobile position gun). That indicates a gun with limited mobility compared with the field guns.
In 1937 and 38 some of the guns were modified for motorization in different ways and in 1938 tracked Cletrac tractors were bought.
One motorized battalion of three batteries with four 10.5cm guns each should have been mobilized at Fossumströket fortress in SE Norway, but only two guns were successfully made combat ready (no rubber wheels available!), and these two never got into a firing position.
cal: 105 mm
barrel: 28 cal
weight: ? kg
shell wgt: ? kg
max range: ? m
muzzle vel: ? m/s
elevation: -7 to +20deg
side: 5 deg

I can do a research home for more data - I know for sure that have photos.

YAN
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Re: Greek Artillery 1941

Post by YAN » 08 Oct 2009 15:04

Thanks Edge, the Norwegians sure had some interesting guns.
Yan.

Idomeneas
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Re: Greek Artillery 1941

Post by Idomeneas » 08 Oct 2009 17:39

Dear The Edge,
Regarding your estimations, about the 75mm field guns offered to Greece by the British I am afraid that I have a different opinion.
The first batch of 18 arrived in Greece on January 1941. Another 6 were shipped in the same convoy but the ship was sunk by submarines. Great Britain offered 26 more that never reach Greece, due to the same reason. Those guns probably were ex-USA (Model 1897).
The USA released 50 75mm field guns (new model) on March 1941 that were shipped in two batches (28+22) on 18 April and 30 May 1941. They were never received by the Hellenic Army, but it is possible that the first batch arrived Crete and entered in service with British units.
At the same time, during March 1941, the greek side pressed the USA for 50 more units, and finally the British accepted to offer 24-25 more from those, but there is no hint that they have been shipped to Greece.

Regarding the 105 and 150mm Skoda guns in the greek inventory, those were certainly captured by the Turks.
The same cannot be said for the entire number of the 75mm Skoda, because some of them had been acquired directly from the factories.

Idomeneas

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The Edge
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Re: Greek Artillery 1941

Post by The Edge » 09 Oct 2009 12:36

I see - it was actually more complicated affair than I realized at first. Thanks for clearing this up! :D

On behalf of my friend Marco, do you know what guns (beside obvious Schneider M.04 ones) were captured at the end of WWI from Bulgarians? (few Skoda 75mm M.1915 mountain guns? :roll: )
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Re: Greek Artillery 1941

Post by The Edge » 09 Oct 2009 12:39

Yan, see http://www.forthoytorp.com/doks/historikk.htm (end of article) for some new data on Norwegian 105mm guns (Cockeril one depicted).
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Idomeneas
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Re: Greek Artillery 1941

Post by Idomeneas » 09 Oct 2009 17:45

Dear Edge,
I am sorry, but I can't help your friend Marco. I can offer you a list with the guns captured the Hellenic Army had, at the end of 1922.

11 Skoda 150mm (Turkey)
4 Krupp 150mm
2 Schneider 120mm
5 Krupp 105mm
6 Armstrong 105mm
7 Skoda 105mm (Turkey)
8 Erhart 77mm (mountain)
10 Krupp 75mm (mountain)
9 Schneider 70mm (mountain)
21 Schneider Mle 1904 75mm (field)
6 Schneider Mle 1907 75mm (field)
136 Krupp m.1904-1910 75mm (field)

There were 22 75mm Skoda mountain guns also, that some sources are considering them as captured by the Turks. This is not entirely true. Even though, the Hellenic Army captured some of those guns during the Asia Minor expedition, it is natural that some were lost or abandoned during the retreat in the summer of 1922. But at the same time Greece, ordered some of these guns from European country. Personally the only info I found in greek sources is that during May 1918, the Hellenic Army captured 35 bulgarian guns. I don't know about any bulgarian Skoda guns.

Regarding the mountain 75mm Krupp and 105, 150mm I have some reservations if they were really captured during the battles. This is because their description is general and the Hellenic Army had some old Krupp guns of these calibers at the beginning of the 20th century.

Idomeneas

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Re: Greek Artillery 1941

Post by YAN » 12 Oct 2009 15:49

Thanks Edge, I will give it a shufftie.
Yan.

Idomeneas
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Re: Greek Artillery 1941

Post by Idomeneas » 15 Oct 2009 18:30

Dear friends,

I would like to ask the following. During WW II, the Hellenic Army had 24 units of 6 inches howitzers of UK design.
I know that Greece acquired some of these howitzers from UK as military assistance during WW I. By that time Greece was receiving military material from UK and France in order to re-organize her Army. Among other guns Greece received 120mm De Bange from France.
Right after the disaster in Asia Minor, in August 1922, the Hellenic Army started a new re-organization of the destroyed units. It is known generally that UK and France sold material to Greece, but it is not known any specific contract for guns, like those 24 6' inches howitzers, was signed that period. I am asking this because according to the official history, the Hellenic Army lost all heavy artillery during the evacuation from Asia Minor.

Other sources for example indicate that Greece acquired at the beginning of 1923, used Peerles armoured trucks from UK.
Can anybody help? Any idea of sales of guns to Greece between 1922-1923 from UK or France?

Idomeneas

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The Edge
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Re: Greek Artillery 1941

Post by The Edge » 16 Oct 2009 10:29

There is one other option - ITALY.

During WWI Italy obtained a number of British 6" howitzers. They obviously had surplus guns in 1920s, so why not sell some quantity to country that need them urgently? When you mentioned the purchase of second-hand 75mm Skoda 1915 mountain guns, my first thought about possible source was Italy too.

Since Greece acquired various military material from Italy (Pavesi & Fiat vehicles, for example; post-WWI purchase of Mannlicher-Schonauer rifles was also realized via Italy), so maybe this was also the source of 6" howitzers.
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