Yugoslave armour 1941

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YAN
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Yugoslave armour 1941

Post by YAN » 20 Oct 2009 15:03

Hi, I have been looking at sites containing data on the Yugoslave armoured force, the vehicles in mainly contained I have listd below with quantity in brackets.

Renault FT17 (56)
Renault R35 (54)
Renault-Kegresse M.28 (?)
T-32 (Skoda S-I-d) Assault Gun (8)

I have all the data I need on the Renault FT-17 & 35, and even the T-32, but what was the M.28, was it a armoured car the sites I have been on recently dont ofer any data and one called it a tank ?.
Thanks Yan.

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Ironmachine
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Re: Yugoslave armour 1941

Post by Ironmachine » 20 Oct 2009 16:43

Given that the M.28 seems to have been grouped with the FT-17s, and that I have seen it named "Char de Combat Muni du Propulseur Kegresse-Hinstin M.27/28", I would say that they were a kind of modernized FT-17, a further development in the series of
Renault FT Kegresse-Hinstin M24/25
A test to attempt to modernize the FT tank. This upgrade made the tank faster and quieter. The New Citroen Kegresse running gear and continuous rubber band track were a real innovation. Several countries, including the United States purchased this tank for study (as seen in the photo on the right). Some of these units saw action in Morocco in 1925.
and
Renault FT Kegresse-Hinstin M26/27
This was a further development of the Kegresse suspension and featured a modified track work with one return roller. The continuous rubber band track was strengthened with metal pads. The front ditching rollers had been discarded. The rear ones were retained.
The quotes come from http://mailer.fsu.edu/~akirk/tanks/fran ... Other.html, where you can see pictures of those vehicles.

YAN
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Re: Yugoslave armour 1941

Post by YAN » 21 Oct 2009 10:52

Thanks Ironmachine, your right it dose look like a enlarged FT-17, I wonder if it had the same armour and speed as the normal FT-17, and did it carry the same weapons.
Yan.

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Re: Yugoslave armour 1941

Post by YAN » 21 Oct 2009 11:03

I have just come across this total

Yugoslavia 1941. Total: 107 tanks

45 Renault FT 17 tanks
4 Renault M 27/28 tanks
50 Renault R-35t anks
8 Skoda SID 8 tankettes

Whilst we are on the subject of the Yugoslavian Forces, can any one tell me the main L.M.G & M.M.G. used by the Royal Yugoslav army in this period please.
Yan.

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The Edge
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Re: Yugoslave armour 1941

Post by The Edge » 22 Oct 2009 12:00

Renault FT17 & Renault-Kegresse M.26/26 (56)
Renault R35 (54)
T-32 (Skoda S-I-d) Assault Gun (8)

Renault-Kegresse M.26/26 was only a FT-17 with different suspension.
Deliveries of old Renaults: 8+21(28)+20
First delivery (1922) was 8 x FT-17 (three MG, two 37mm-tanks) - French Donation
Second delivery (1928-30) was mixture of FT-17s & Renault-Kegresses (bought from France)
Third delivery (1935) was 20xFT-17 - another French free donation (formaly a "borrowing")
FT-17 in Yugoslav Army was named “Borna kola Reno M.17” (“Combat Car Renault M.17”)
Renault-Kegresse M.26/26 was “Borna kola Reno M.28” (“Combat Car Renault M.28”)
(“Borna kola” was Serbian translation of French “Char de combat”, i.e. tank)
Exact ratio of M.28 vs FT-17 tanks bought 1928-30 is not known. However, photos from early 1930s at Tank School show only M.28s, so FT-17s then were probably both less numerous & stored as partly worn-out.
Yugoslav Army bought these Renault tanks fully aware that they are already semi-obsolete: the purpose was to train the troops & gaining experience in tank warfare / maintainance, with a later purchase of combat-worthy model (in substantial number).

S-Id vehicle was Skoda a factory prototype, tested by Yugoslav Army. Eight purchased T-32 “Fast Combat Cars” were slightly different from this prototype, so strictly speaking they were not “S-Id”s. Rather satisfied with such AFV, but not with the main gun (37mm A3a model) Yugoslavs demanded a 47mm-armed vehicle (since standard Yugoslav ATG was Skoda 47mm A5). Czechs went “back to the drawing board” and eventually produced another prototype, only to be seized by Germans.

Cheers, Edge / Antic

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The Edge
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Re: Yugoslave armour 1941

Post by The Edge » 22 Oct 2009 12:24

Btw, I'm still amazed that you prefer French ("Yugoslave") rather then English ("Yugoslav Armour"). :wink:

LMGs in 1941 ("Squad Automatic Weapon" sized)
M.15 (Chauchat Mle 1915) - 1.900 pcs (partly re-chambered to 7.92mm)
M.26 (ZB-26) - 5.000 pcs
M.37 (ZB-30J) - 12.000 pcs
(First two models were in depots for reserve troops)

LMGs (Company support sized)
M.8/15 (German Light Maxim MG-08715)
M.15 (German Bergmann MG-15nA)
M.5/12 (former Austrian "light Schwarzlose" M.07/12)

MMGs in 1941:
M.5/12 (Schwarzlose) - some number still in 8mm
M.12/26 (Schwarzlose, re-chambered to 7.92mm) most numerous model
M.7 (St. Etienne Mle 1907) - second most numerous model
M.14 (Hotchkiss Mle 1914) - all in 8mm Lebel
(also) M.9 Maxim (DMW-made M.1909 export model, re-chambered to 7.92mm)
(few) M.8 Maxim (ex-German MG-08)

Total number 19.000 of Company-LMGs & MMGs, of all types - used by Army, Navy, Air Force

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MarkoZ
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Re: Yugoslave armour 1941

Post by MarkoZ » 22 Oct 2009 16:33

Ivica, You make no mention of the 1500 VZ 37 7.9mm MGs which had been manufactured under licence by Zastava.

They were issued to front line units, I have a picture of my Uncle 'Novica' manning one on 6th April 1941, whilst he was attached to the 'Sumadiska' Division.

cheers

Marko

YAN
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Re: Yugoslave armour 1941

Post by YAN » 23 Oct 2009 10:25

Thanks Guys, good info, Edge was the FT-17s gun or mg armed or a mixture of both.
Yan.

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Re: Yugoslave armour 1941

Post by YAN » 23 Oct 2009 13:49

I see now what you mean Edge about Yugoslave and Yugoslav, I dont know which one is correct its just the way I was poeple use to spell it when I was young, I remember going to Croatia when I was 16 when it was still a part of Yugoslavia and having a ball, but I did not know that you could spell it two ways.
Yan.

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Re: Yugoslave armour 1941

Post by MarkoZ » 23 Oct 2009 17:15

This thread has solved a mystery for me as i have now discovered that the Yugoslav army ordered 108 of the improved skoda S1D tankettes with 47mm gun. 8-)

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Re: Yugoslave armour 1941

Post by MarkoZ » 23 Oct 2009 18:02

Here is the link to the info on the SID (S1J) http://forum.valka.cz/viewtopic.php/tit ... -j/t/71895

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MarkoZ
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Re: Yugoslave armour 1941

Post by MarkoZ » 23 Oct 2009 22:44

I have yet again been perusing the Czech Forum and found this interesting article re Yugoslavia's attempt to obtain a 47mm gun armed version of the T35.

http://forum.valka.cz/viewtopic.php/t/37558

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The Edge
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Re: Yugoslave armour 1941

Post by The Edge » 26 Oct 2009 15:11

MarkoZ wrote:Ivica, You make no mention of the 1500 VZ 37 7.9mm MGs which had been manufactured under licence by Zastava.
They are incorporated in total number. :wink: 10,000 was ordered from Czechoslovakia (they arrived in two batches 1938, 2,500+7,500) and 2,000 from Kragujevac State Arsenal under license (not called "Zastava" until the 1950s).
http://forum.valka.cz/viewtopic.php/t/6 ... CZK-ZB-30J
Last edited by The Edge on 26 Oct 2009 15:36, edited 1 time in total.

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Re: Yugoslave armour 1941

Post by The Edge » 26 Oct 2009 15:24

Probably familiar to all: :wink:

Drawing with S-I-d prototype (top) & T-32 comparation (3D): http://stef124.tripod.com/SKODA7.JPG from: http://stef124.tripod.com/skodat32.htm


T-3D (Skoda S-I-j) Assault Gun
In 1938 this vehicle design for Yugoslavia was produced at prototype level and accepted for production. Before production, the breakup of Czechoslovakia began. The prototype was purchased by the German Waffen SS. No other vehicles were produced. This vehicle has the distinction of being the last assualt gun ever designed by Skoda.

http://mailer.fsu.edu/~akirk/tanks/yugo ... lavia.html
http://mailer.fsu.edu/~akirk/tanks/Czec ... vakia.html

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MarkoZ
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Re: Yugoslave armour 1941

Post by MarkoZ » 26 Oct 2009 19:07

The Edge wrote:
MarkoZ wrote:Ivica, You make no mention of the 1500 VZ 37 7.9mm MGs which had been manufactured under licence by Zastava.
They are incorporated in total number. :wink: 10,000 was ordered from Czechoslovakia (they arrived in two batches 1938, 2,500+7,500) and 2,000 from Kragujevac State Arsenal under license (not called "Zastava" until the 1950s).
http://forum.valka.cz/viewtopic.php/t/6 ... CZK-ZB-30J
Edge you are right, but can you tell me how many VZ 37 HMG calibre 7.9mm were in service in April 1941?

(the one that became the Besa tank MG)

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