Yugoslave armour 1941

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TISO
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Re: Yugoslave armour 1941

Post by TISO » 26 Oct 2009 19:56

YAN wrote:Thanks Guys, good info, Edge was the FT-17s gun or mg armed or a mixture of both.
Yan.
Both. Also both turrets were present (Berliet and Renault). Camo was also diverse with vehicles mostly still french.

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Re: Yugoslave armour 1941

Post by The Edge » 27 Oct 2009 09:11

MarkoZ wrote: Edge you are right, but can you tell me how many VZ 37 HMG calibre 7.9mm were in service in April 1941?
(the one that became the Besa tank MG)
With Yugoslavia? :roll: Easy answer - none. :D

(Yugoslavia used only a "big brother" version - 15mm VZ-60 - the one that became "Besa 15mm" tank MG in British service).
All ZB-53 (vz. 37) MMGs used in Yugoslavia 1941-45 came via Germany.
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Re: Yugoslave armour 1941

Post by The Edge » 27 Oct 2009 09:15

TISO wrote:
YAN wrote:Thanks Guys, good info, Edge was the FT-17s gun or mg armed or a mixture of both.
Yan.
Both. Also both turrets were present (Berliet and Renault). Camo was also diverse with vehicles mostly still french.
Agree. Newest 20 FT-17 vehicles (actually WWI-veterans), that came as French Aid in 1935, had three-tone French camouflage and most of them were not re-painted. (Also not brought to FT-17/31 standard)
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Re: Yugoslave armour 1941

Post by YAN » 27 Oct 2009 11:35

Hello Edge, I read what you fellows were posting about the 15mm VZ-60 (what was the Yugoslav name for this weapon), was it a common weapon in the Yugoslav inf divisions, not only for air defence but also for anti-personel use as well as knocking out light AFVs.
Thanks Yan.

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Re: Yugoslave armour 1941

Post by MarkoZ » 27 Oct 2009 20:21

The Edge wrote:
MarkoZ wrote: Edge you are right, but can you tell me how many VZ 37 HMG calibre 7.9mm were in service in April 1941?
(the one that became the Besa tank MG)
With Yugoslavia? :roll: Easy answer - none. :D

(Yugoslavia used only a "big brother" version - 15mm VZ-60 - the one that became "Besa 15mm" tank MG in British service).
All ZB-53 (vz. 37) MMGs used in Yugoslavia 1941-45 came via Germany.
What is my uncle Novica Posing with,this picture supposedly taken on 6th April 1941
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The Edge
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Re: Yugoslave armour 1941

Post by The Edge » 28 Oct 2009 08:51

Wow! 8O (Stunned) :?

Never seen any Yugoslav info / photo about this model of MG in 1941 armament. :(
(Officially the first question on the menu for one person in Belgrade when I meet him next time!)

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Re: Yugoslave armour 1941

Post by The Edge » 28 Oct 2009 14:40

YAN wrote:Hello Edge, I read what you fellows were posting about the 15mm VZ-60 (what was the Yugoslav name for this weapon), was it a common weapon in the Yugoslav inf divisions, not only for air defence but also for anti-personel use as well as knocking out light AFVs.
15mm "Large-calibre MG" M.38 (similar phrase as Polish used - abr. "NKM")
Very common (Average infantry division had one "Heavy" AAMG company with mere 6 guns)
Little sceptic about its usefullness in AT role (ammo issue still not clear for me)
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Re: Yugoslave armour 1941

Post by YAN » 28 Oct 2009 16:17

Thanks Edge, how are you on Lithuanian artillery, I cant find much to go on.
Yan.

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Re: Yugoslave armour 1941

Post by YAN » 28 Oct 2009 16:25

Sorry Edge, forgot to ask, did the Yugoslav army use the P-38 Walther as its main side arm ?.
Thanks Yan.

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Re: Yugoslave armour 1941

Post by The Edge » 29 Oct 2009 09:01

Uncle Novica photo compelled me to look at the existing data with a new prospect. Yugoslav Military Encyclopedia state that 19.000 MMGs were used in 1941 - 1.000 "modern" and 18.000 "old-fashioned". "Modern" MGs have also sidemark "adapted weapons" (similar remark as for Skoda M.14/19 howitzers - an old M.14 howitzers reworked to M.14/19 standars in 1938). Needless to say, I previously took for granted that these are old (WWI-era) MGs relined to new 7.92mm caliber.

However, beside Swartzlose M.12/28 conversions (made by ATZ - Kragujevac state arsenal), various 7.92mm Maxim conversions existed (from ex-Serbian, Bulgarian, Turkish, Montenegrin and perhaps even Romanian DMW commercial M.09 Maxims), plus there was also a some number of original German MG-08 Maxims. So 7.92mm weapons were much numerous that "1.000" number given - and none of them could be considered as "modern".

It seems that Encyclopedia people made an error processing the collected data - 1.000 modern MMGs could be brand new ZB-53s, bought alongside a mass of other Czech weaponary under the 500-million deal from 1936. (Next job for me is to find what was the original designation - M.36, 37 or 38, of these MGs)

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Re: Yugoslave armour 1941

Post by The Edge » 29 Oct 2009 09:28

YAN wrote:Thanks Edge, how are you on Lithuanian artillery, I cant find much to go on.
Yan.

Most of the info I have regarding the Lithuanian artillery is found here, at AHF. Try the "search" engine (we can compare the data obtained later).

About the P-38 issue - yes, Yugoslav Army used a lot of these pistols - after WW2. It was used alongside the numerous Lugers (that was also the standard Army shooting match pistol) and various other booty 9mm weapons; the numbers were such that the production of new 9x19mm ammo started as early as 1949 (my favourite brand of ammo from 1990s, when I used to shoot & experiment a lot - it was available, affordable and very potent too - better suited to SMGs than pistols). In 1957 Yugoslavia adopted the domestic weapon (TT-copy) in 7.62x25mm caliber, so 9mm weapons in 1960s became the "reserve standard". It was a common practise to give them as a retirement gift to ex Army personel (I later owned three such "ex-Army" guns). These retired officers were allowed to take one full-auto (!) weapon too (usually a SMG), so it was obvious state policy to keep these (trusted) men fully armed in case of unexpected trouble.

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Re: Yugoslave armour 1941

Post by YAN » 29 Oct 2009 11:05

Thanks for the info Edge (sounds great to be able to go shooting with real guns, thats a pleasure we cannot do over here because of the laws are very strict and to get a shot gun licence you have to go through so many checks that it is not worth it).

About the Lithuanians (enough of my ramblings) this is what I have found so far,

Lithuanian Field Artillery Regiment had each with 3 x Groups of 3 x Batteries of 4 x Guns (75mm Schneider I think).
One Independent Heavy Regiment of 2 x Groups each of 3 x Batteries of 4 x Heavy Howitzers (105mm & 152mm either French or Russian I think.

They also used the 75mm M.15 Skoda mountain gun and 81mm mortars (probably Stokes/Brandt).
Can’t find any AT or AA as yet, I will keep searching.
Yan.

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Re: Yugoslave armour 1941

Post by MarkoZ » 29 Oct 2009 18:23

The Edge wrote:Uncle Novica photo compelled me to look at the existing data with a new prospect. Yugoslav Military Encyclopedia state that 19.000 MMGs were used in 1941 - 1.000 "modern" and 18.000 "old-fashioned". "Modern" MGs have also sidemark "adapted weapons" (similar remark as for Skoda M.14/19 howitzers - an old M.14 howitzers reworked to M.14/19 standars in 1938). Needless to say, I previously took for granted that these are old (WWI-era) MGs relined to new 7.92mm caliber.

However, beside Swartzlose M.12/28 conversions (made by ATZ - Kragujevac state arsenal), various 7.92mm Maxim conversions existed (from ex-Serbian, Bulgarian, Turkish, Montenegrin and perhaps even Romanian DMW commercial M.09 Maxims), plus there was also a some number of original German MG-08 Maxims. So 7.92mm weapons were much numerous that "1.000" number given - and none of them could be considered as "modern".

It seems that Encyclopedia people made an error processing the collected data - 1.000 modern MMGs could be brand new ZB-53s, bought alongside a mass of other Czech weaponary under the 500-million deal from 1936. (Next job for me is to find what was the original designation - M.36, 37 or 38, of these MGs)
Uncle Novica also told me that he took part in a 'special mission' in early 1939, flew in transport plane on 7 occasions to Czechoslovakia and brought back secret militrary equipement. but I assumed he meant parts such as machine tools etc.

could it be that they were clandestinely acquiring portable weapons stocks from their allies rather than them going to the Germans or Slovaks.
8-)

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Re: Yugoslave armour 1941

Post by The Edge » 30 Oct 2009 09:10

MarkoZ wrote: Uncle Novica also told me that he took part in a 'special mission' in early 1939, flew in transport plane on 7 occasions to Czechoslovakia and brought back secret militrary equipement. but I assumed he meant parts such as machine tools etc.

could it be that they were clandestinely acquiring portable weapons stocks from their allies rather than them going to the Germans or Slovaks. 8-)
Very interesting info - I guess the Yugoslav side was also eager to took everuthing possible to fulfill the 500 million budget before the further supply became burdened with German authority.

Eventually all come to the same end - the first result of my search:

7,92-mm s.Machinengewehr 246 (j) - Jugoslawische ZB 53
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Re: Yugoslave armour 1941

Post by YAN » 05 Nov 2009 17:09

To my Friend The Edge, I have cone across some data saying that the Lithuanians had a couple of Czech 105mm Guns,
The complete list,

110 x 75mm M-1897 Guns (Schneider)
70 x 105mm M-1934 Howitzers (Schneider)
12 x 18 pdr Guns (Vickers),
19 x 76,2mm m-1902 Guns (Putilov)
2 x 105mm Czech made guns vz 1935 (Czech)
9 x 75mm M-31 AA guns (Vickers)
151 x 20mm AA Guns (Oerlicon)
150 x 20mm Flak 28 AA Guns (Germany)
Also,
70 mm / 32-mm infantry guns (Czech)
15 mm s.F.H 13 howitzers (Germany)
105 mm l.F.H 16 howitzers (Germany)

Quite a lot of different weapons for such a small army.
Thanks Yan.

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