Neutral Ireland

[Eireneutral]

I am interested to hear from anyone with information re Irelands neutrality during ww2.
Was it a ploy used by the allies to stop a German invasion of the Island, and useing it as a stepping stone to easily taking over Britain.

[LWD]

??? You think the Germans could have successfully invaded Ireland? And that the allies could control the Irish Government?

[Eireneutral]

Yes i would think that the Germans could have taken, even all of the British isles as well only, for they went to war with Russia. I think that the allies did, control the Irish Government, they even established them, to a certain extent, it's a similar type scenario, to lets say Iraq as it is now, and Libyia also, and a countless other amount of countries down through the decades, where they wanted regime change.

[LWD]

Yes i would think that the Germans could have taken, even all of the British isles as well only, for they went to war with Russia.

That is simply absurd. How would they get there? The KM especially after Norway was a joke as far as a sea control force goes and they couldn't even maintain a sembalance of air superiority over a force that was attempting to invade Ireland. Indeed look at Sea Lion. They were counting on barges which would be luck to even attain 6 knots to get to England. How long would it take them to reach Ireland if the British didn't interfere. How much more readily could they have interfered once said invasion convoys were out of LW contested air space.

I think that the allies did, control the Irish Government, they even established them, to a certain extent, it's a similar type scenario, to lets say Iraq as it is now, and Libyia also, and a countless other amount of countries down through the decades, where they wanted regime change.

Then you need to study more and/or get a better grounding in the real world. The allies would have been much better served if Ireland had joined in as an ally. For one thing air bases in southern and western Ireland could have made things much tougher earlier on the Uboats.

[Dunserving]

There was the "Donegal Corridor" that quietly allowed the RAF to take a short cut through Irish airspace......

Neutrality was not strictly observed.

[panzerplatten]

Sovereignty, was the precedent for the neutral stance,
And was largely supported by the Irish people at the time bar a minority who favoured fighting the axis nations, Ireland as a new state a hand full of year's out of a civil war,and under a new constitution which came onto effect in December 1937, did not want to be dictated to as to what it should do, especially by Briton at that time, Churchill wanted certain Irish ports and threatened to take them by force if necessary, DeValara stationed Irish troops at certain deep sea ports to counteract his threats, all in all the situation was not as plain cut as just as yes or no scenario, complex and without getting into it political. Breaches of neutrality were common place, airspace and sea patrols up and down the west coast from donegal to west cork, forced landings repairs etc were carried out at airfields like rinana now Shannon airport regularly for allied aircraft both American and British, downed pilots who survived were normally returned to their units after a few days only luftwaffe pilots who survived were interned for the duration of the war.
I agree lwd I could never envisage sealion being a reality, but never the less without the correct Intel at the time was perceived as a genuine threat.
Mark

[phylo_roadking]

I have a LOT of trouble with the original post

Was it a ploy used by the allies to stop a German invasion of the Island

Then Ireland would hardly have been Neutral, would it???

Britain desperately WANTED Ireland to join the war - google on "Treaty Ports" They threatened invasion themselves on several occasions, tried to cajole De valera on several occasions, and twice even offered him northern Ireland on a plate...all to no avail! That's hardly being neutral as an Allied ploy!

Moving on...

I think that the allies did, control the Irish Government, they even established them, to a certain extent, it's a similar type scenario, to lets say Iraq as it is now, and Libyia also, and a countless other amount of countries down through the decades, where they wanted regime change.

OP, I'm really beginning to question where you spent your formative years....for it questionably wasn't in an Irish classroom!

The British government did NOT "establish" the government of the Irish Free State - they DID agree to Ireland having "Free State" status within the Empire after 3 years of guerilla warfare, murder, mayhem and civil disobedience...during which the Irish themselves formed a shadow administration and began to take of the reins of running the country in various large towns and places BEFORE the treaty was passed and the Free State came into being!

The British DID NOT WANT REGIME CHANGE - it was forced upon them as a result of the Irish War of Independence.

[phylo_roadking]

downed pilots who survived were normally returned to their units after a few days only luftwaffe pilots who survived were interned for the duration of the war.

For several years, the RAF aircrew who ended up in the South by mishap or misadventure were interned...just allowed full freedom of movement within the Free State on officers' parole. One RAF pilot officer who decided "stuff this!" and instead of getting the train into Dublin for the day from the Curragh camp hopped a train to Belfast instead to return to his unit...

...and was RETURNED to the Curragh by his superiors!

The German aircrew were originally allowed the SAME freedom of movement...but "blotted their copybook" by attempted a massed escape from the facility at the Curragh...and spent the rest of the war parole-less lock-down.

After the end of 1941, any American aircrew who were downed south of the border WERE returned ASAP to the border...and quietly through 1942 IIRC, the British internees were released back to the North.

[phylo_roadking]

However - the question of whether or not the Germans could achieve a lodgement in ireland is another matter...I think they could - ONLY given the negligible strngth of the defenders!

Fall Grun was originally intended as a optional diversion under the main Sealion plans...much like the early-considered diversionary attack in the Firth of Forth! IIRC eight large merchant ships were given over to the expedition from the poll available for Sealion.

The problem was...the Irish Defence Forces mustered IIRC some 8,500 men at the start of the war, though this did gradually extend to 12-16,000 (have to check) They also had a two-tier home guard system, comprising the LDV and the LSF (PP, correct me on my nomemclature? I can't find my Osprey Guide...) The LDV was (eventually) equiped and outfitted like our Home Guard...but the Local Service Force was a denim-overall-wearing body of men with VERY makeshift weapons! I've heard it said that more nationalistic and anti-Treaty Volunteers and old Irregulars were pushed towards the LSF...so that at least they wouldn't have access to REAL guns! Just one of the issues to be catered for in a nation that had recently come out of its own Civil War...and feelings were still high! (Not helped by De valera sweeping up and jailing many of his former comrades in the Irregulars on the outbreak of the war! LMAO)

The problem was...the British FULLY intended to intervene in this invasion if it happened, by advancing south to meet the Germans! Some 51,000 men were mustered in NI under OC BTNI (British troops Northern Ireland, not British Telecom NI!!!), whole trains packed with munitions and materiel were made ready and stored at the marshalling yards at balmoral on the outskirts of Belfast...for the main thrust was to be directly south towards Dublin along the line of the belfast-Dublin railway, so the British forces could be supplied by rail as they advanced. There was also IIRC a force to cross the South Armagh border towards Castleblaney, eventually heading for Athlone....and another force to cross the border beside Londonderry and take the treaty "port" of Lough Swilly, via the town of Muff...

British servicemen invading Muff??? Not the first time they've ever done THAT around the world!

The problem of course was...as he made fully clear to Churchill... if the British moved against the Germans, De Valera FULLY intended to call on all Irishmen to resist ANY invader!!! Which would have been, as they say here, a bit of a bollix....for if the IDF was only expected to survive for a week against the Germans....how long would they survive fighting BOTH the Germans AND the British???

P.S. this is a MUCH abbreviated version! One of the few remaining copies of the full version of Fall Grun is in the museum in the Cathal Brugha Barracks in Dublin....and details/records of the British "W Plan" are occasionally depalyed in the Public Records Office NI.

[LWD]

Of course the German cargo ships would still have to get to Ireland, even a single corvette showing up could render that impossible unless there was some sort of escort. What could the KM provide however? Then there's the problem that if they do provide an escort it rather makes it easier to tell who they are.

There's also a matter of keeping them supplied if they get there. I suppose the British had camps that were fully capable of supplying food and water.

[phylo_roadking]

Of course the German cargo ships would still have to get to Ireland, even a single corvette showing up could render that impossible unless there was some sort of escort.

Remember - it was a diversionary action to Sealion...where do you think every RN coastal vessel capable of moving will be???

What could the KM provide however? Then there's the problem that if they do provide an escort it rather makes it easier to tell who they are.

Remember the unmarked freighters carrying the bulk of the invasion force to Norway... Plus, sailing to Ireland takes them well out into the Western Approaches, well to the west of the anti-invasion patrols, the Auxiliary patrol etc..

[LWD]

Which may be ok if the British don't have any inkling of the German plans. However if the Germans even come across a convoy?
Then there are various ASW patrols are there not? Indeed didn't British subs keep something of an eye on French harbors? What ports did they plan on sailing from? and how much in front of Sea Lion?

[Sid Guttridge]

It would have been far more difficult for the Germans to reach and maintain a lodgement in Ireland than to invade England in the face of Royal Navy and Royal Air Force home dominance around and over the British Isles. Logistically it is a non-starter.

I would suggest that a German move into Ireland was only likely as part of mopping up operations after a successful invasion of the UK rather than as a predecessor to it.

Why occupy Eire as well? To pre-empt any possible US entry.

Eire didn't fight for independence from the UK and fight an even bloodier civil war just to surrender what it had gained to another power.

Cheers,

Sid.

[Dunserving]

British servicemen invading Muff??? Not the first time they've ever done THAT around the world!

Well said sir! The British squaddie can always be relied on to try to please wherever he goes... Odd that no-one else seems to have got it!

[panzerplatten]

It's been picked up on ok dunserving, and Manys the dose also, all depends on where and who the muff diving is done!