For what ship was the Dutch 9.4cm 10 tl gun intended?

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Hardrada55
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For what ship was the Dutch 9.4cm 10 tl gun intended?

Post by Hardrada55 » 17 Mar 2019 04:59

A very interesting website about the war in the Netherlands in 1940 states that 12 Krupp 9.4cm [10 tl] guns originally intended for use on board a cruiser were available for use beginning in 1925 and that 3 of these guns were placed at the fortress Den Helder defending the main Dutch naval base and were the heaviest battery in use in May 1940. The 3 guns were mounted on a "turntable" mounting with an armoured shield to protect the crew. For what Dutch ship were these guns originally intended? The year 1925 and the number of guns being 12, seems to suggest the Java class which were commissioned in 1925 and 1926. The unbuilt Celebes was cancelled in 1917. Maybe Flores and Soemba and Johan Maurits van Nassau? Or some other ship or class of ships?
LuA-2---stuk-10tl-foto-8.jpg
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jwsleser
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Re: For what ship was the Dutch 9.4cm 10 tl gun intended?

Post by jwsleser » 18 Mar 2019 02:24

Which website has this info? Link?

A 9.4cm wasn't the largest gun in use. There were quite a few 12cm coastal guns and even some 24cm guns (the five at Ymuiden were not manned, but the four at the Hoek van Holland were manned).

The Java class didn't carry 9.4cm guns, only 15cm guns. 9.4cm is smaller than the guns carried by destroyers and is larger than the common secondary/AA pieces (7.5cm). I need to read the original site to understand what is being stated.
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Ironmachine
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Re: For what ship was the Dutch 9.4cm 10 tl gun intended?

Post by Ironmachine » 18 Mar 2019 08:11

jwsleser wrote:Which website has this info? Link?
Probably this one: http://www.waroverholland.nl/index.php? ... s-may-1940
The exact quote
Three navy Krupp guns of 9,4 cm [10.tl] - previously intended to be used on board of a cruiser - had been modified for use against airborne targets. Although the battery was one of its kind it would proof effective and moreover the heaviest available battery of AAA available in May 1940. The three guns were constructed on a trimable pivot mounting, with their original armoured plating to protect the crew against enemy aircraft fire. The fire-controls were modified and adapted to AAA duty. The original navy gun-crew arrangement [of three constables and one commander] remained.
In total twelve 9,4 cm guns had come available to the SA defences, but since the wear of these guns seemed to be high, it was decided to form only one battery. These kind of decisions were the ones that stunned historians after the war. Apparently one bright mind had considered the duration of a Dutch-German war to be so extended that the battery would have its guns replaced three times, in stead of forming two batteries with one full spare for each of those.
contains some small but significant details; for example, it was not "the heaviest battery in use in May 1940", but the "heaviest available battery of AAA".

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jwsleser
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Re: For what ship was the Dutch 9.4cm 10 tl gun intended?

Post by jwsleser » 18 Mar 2019 15:15

Thank you Ironmachine. I did look at that site but didn't go far enough. I stopped at the coastal guns section. The gun did look like an anti-aircraft piece, I just didn't follow that hunch.

If both the 1925 date and the original purpose of the guns were for cruisers, then the Sumatra class are the likely candidates. These ships were originally equipped with four 76mm anti-aircraft guns. Twelve guns would have equipped the three ships (assuming these guns were ordered before the final decision to cancel Celebes). In reality, the 76mm guns were replaced by the 40mm AA guns in 1934-35.

The problem with this possibility is that the website states that the guns were modified for use in the AA role (as were the associated fire control systems). As the 76mm guns on the cruisers were AA, why would the Dutch replace them with guns useful only for surface engagements?

Anyhow, just my thoughts. No real source to back them up.

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Hardrada55
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Re: For what ship was the Dutch 9.4cm 10 tl gun intended?

Post by Hardrada55 » 18 Mar 2019 21:53

So many questions about this. Why Krupp 9.4cm guns and not 8.8cm? 9.4cm seems like a very strange caliber for Krupp to make and much more like a Vickers Armstrong product, but the 3.7in Vickers didn't appear until 1937. Did Krupp ever make such "off-caliber" guns? I know I read somewhere that at one time Java and Sumatra were going to be updated and that the single mount guns were all going to be removed and replaced with twin turreted 150mm guns in the A, B, X, Y positions. Has anyone read of any indication that these guns were intended for mounting in place of the 75mm guns on these Dutch cruisers?
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peeved
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Re: For what ship was the Dutch 9.4cm 10 tl gun intended?

Post by peeved » 18 Mar 2019 22:18

According to this link: http://www.militairmagazijn.nl/bronnen/ ... 093fd1f29/
the guns were from the start meant to be land based; Initially under Navy but transferred to Army control.

Markus

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jwsleser
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Re: For what ship was the Dutch 9.4cm 10 tl gun intended?

Post by jwsleser » 20 Mar 2019 02:20

Thank you for the link peeved. Was anyone able to download the pictures?

This has been a topic of discussion before.

The Mysterious Dutch 10cm AAA Guns

The interesting point is that the 10 tl guns were 10.5cm, not 9.4cm. This matches other Dutch artillery classified as 10 tl. The article also states that these guns were AAA for ports and not originally built specifically for a warship.

So some questions about these weapons.

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