South African Sherman Fireflies

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SU 85M hunter
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South African Sherman Fireflies

#1

Post by SU 85M hunter » 01 Mar 2021, 01:00

Does anyone know when the 6th South African armoured division got its first shipment of Fireflies?
This is quite a simple question, yet I have found no answers on the internet, so any info would be greatly appreciated!

EwenS
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Re: South African Sherman Fireflies

#2

Post by EwenS » 01 Mar 2021, 15:24

From Mark Hayward’s “Sherman Firefly” the first Fireflies arrived in Italy in Sept 1944 and the first were allocated to units around the end of that month. The RAC returns and other reports detailed in the book show 6th SA Armd Div with 4 Firefies on strength for the first time by 21 Dec 1944 (none on 17th Nov).

The reporting of numbers in 1945 is less than clear with some being estimates. By the beginning of April numbers had grown to 24-27 and were at 26 by 25th June. They were supposed to have 36. They were probably Ic versions.


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Martin_Schenkel
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Re: South African Sherman Fireflies

#3

Post by Martin_Schenkel » 04 Mar 2021, 07:45

"The British Armies in World War Two: An Organisational history, Vol 2" (Hughes, Broshot, and Philson) says that in January 45 they only had enough for one per Squadron, and by April 45 each Squadron had one full troop of Fireflies.

Libik
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Re: South African Sherman Fireflies

#4

Post by Libik » 11 Dec 2021, 12:25

Do you also have overall tank and vehicle numbers for the division ? I am mainly interested in Jul-Aug-Sep-Oct 44 timeframe, and the only tank numbers I could find are very generic, such as Hobby site which gives 36x Sherman IIa and 15x Sherman Vc for Aug44 and sextons for that timeframe while Zaloga contradicts that saying they got their first sextons at beginning of Nov44, and the other number I got from Zaloga is the division having 134 Sherman IIa out of 210 tanks at the end of 44. So as you can see the numbers are all over the place and none are from the timeframe I am looking for. So would be grateful if anyone could help.

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Martin_Schenkel
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Re: South African Sherman Fireflies

#5

Post by Martin_Schenkel » 12 Dec 2021, 03:02

"The British Armies in World War Two: An Organisational History, Vol 7" (Ryan, Hughes, and Rothwell) lists the following:

Major Weapons Holdings - June 1944
310 Tanks (23 over strength)
24 105mm Priest SP Howitzers
48 25pdr field guns
24 4.2" mortars
16 5.5" guns
20 17pdr towed anti-tank guns
24 M10 SP anti-tank guns

Armoured Vehicle Strength - October 1st, 1944
214 Sherman M4A1
2 Sherman Bridgelayers
9 Humber Scout Cars
3 Grant T2 ARV
1 T17 E1 Armoured Car
60 Daimler Dingo Scout Cars

They talk about the Oct-Nov time frame of gradually replacing the original Shermans with Sherman IIA 76mm and adding x6 105mm Shermans to each Armoured Regiment. By the end of the year, the 4th/22nd Field Regiment replaced their Priests for Sextons.

Hope that helps.

Libik
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Re: South African Sherman Fireflies

#6

Post by Libik » 12 Dec 2021, 15:42

It definitely helps but still leaves some questions unanswered when it comes to their tank allocation. I read that the 6SA received some Vc early on for "practise/training" purposes, which could explain the 15x Vc I mention them having in Aug44 but I never found a more reliable source agreeing with this and they of course also used them for combat, so my question here is would there be any chance they didn't write these tanks down in the reports to maybe not have them taken away ?

And second question is just making sure but they didn't have any Sherman IIa before Oct-Nov time frame, and none of the M4A1s from Oct 1st report are FF or 76 ?
And is there a breakdown of what types of tanks they had in the June report as well ?

This is the website I am using https://www.gf9.com/hobby.aspx?art_id=4419 as its the only online place with numbers of tanks.

And thank you for the information so far.

EwenS
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Re: South African Sherman Fireflies

#7

Post by EwenS » 13 Dec 2021, 21:57

One of the best sources for information about Sherman production and allocations is the Sherman Minutia website if you have not already come across it. M4A1(76) / Sherman IIA data can be found here.
http://the.shadock.free.fr/sherman_minu ... tches.html

They seem pretty sure that the first Sherman IIA for Commonwealth units in Italy didn’t appear until Sept 1944 in the British 1st Armoured Div with 6SA following after that.

As for Fireflies in Italy, I think the best information available is that given in my earlier post #2 from March this year. Fireflies were in generally short supply and NWE had priority to replace those vehicles lost during the Normandy campaign. I think the idea that 6SA had some and weren’t reporting Fireflies they had on hand isn’t credible.

With regard to the M4(105) the Lend Lease allocations to Britain were in the months of May-Oct 1944 with 317 allocated to the MTO. You then need to add on an average of 4-5 months for delivery from factory door to frontline.
http://the.shadock.free.fr/sherman_minu ... 105mm.html

Libik
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Re: South African Sherman Fireflies

#8

Post by Libik » 15 Dec 2021, 15:38

I didn't know this source, as I never found it through any google searches but I guess I was using bad keywords.
The FF claim did feel quite weird to me but my knowledge in this area is pretty limited so decided to ask people who know more than me.

But you pretty much answered all my questions I had about vehicle complement of 6SA, so thank you.

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