Perhaps not very glorious but the truth is that the Czechs indeed chose that option and eventually they emerged relatively untouched at the end of the conflict both in terms of casualties and destruction of territory. Just compare to what happened to those who chose a more intransigent stance as Poland and Yugoslavia.It is true that the best solution for Czechs would have been to remain hiding in 1938 and 1939, far from army, to obey german orders from 1939 to 1945, to join the russian to kill german civilians in 1945-1946 and to come out in the light as good communists against Benes and Masaryck to participate in the Prague coup. Not very glorious, but the best way to avoid poetic justice.
Czech hero dies
Alsaco wrote:
Michael, it is clear, that all what you said might be said from someone, who "is general after the battle" and who never understand the mentality of the Czech nation and the situation itself !
To be specific :
It is very easy to say "it was plain bla bla". Yes, NOW it is PLAIN, what happend in communist-ruled area. Do you thing everyone knew in 1939 ?
And it were people like Churchill, Roosevelt and Stalin, who decided and AGREED about the zones, who will occupy what (=who will set up a government on which area). And because of Greece, UK gave up Central Europe.
To be trully honest, as a Czech person, as someone, who knows members of Siska's family, as someone, who met Mr. Siska and other fighters in person I feel really upset that exists people like you, who can say such a stupid things ! I'm not proud of what the country and the nation did to those people, and they really suffered. But I'm proud of every one of them, they gave everything they had to defeat Germany. And they succeed, many of them died. I won't let anyone like you to attack those heroes !!!
To be specific :
Siska was not only fighting for "their country", but he was a member of RAF, fighting AGAINS Nazis, not FOR communists. Maybe you dont see the difference, I do ... It was not clear at all, that there will be communist regime after war, but it was a decision of the ALLIED POWERS. Before war, communists didn't have that much power. Czechoslovakia was oriented on France and Great Britain, which both failed to keep their promises and to save Czechs from Nazis.michael mills wrote:By fighting against Germany, Siska et al ensured that their country would fall under the domination of the Soviet Union and be ruled by their own Communist Party. It was as plain as day that the only alternative to rule by Germany was a Communist regime under Soviet overlordship.
It is very easy to say "it was plain bla bla". Yes, NOW it is PLAIN, what happend in communist-ruled area. Do you thing everyone knew in 1939 ?
And it were people like Churchill, Roosevelt and Stalin, who decided and AGREED about the zones, who will occupy what (=who will set up a government on which area). And because of Greece, UK gave up Central Europe.
Here is the strongest evidence you don't understand anything about that time. What do you think Benes should do ? The decision about soviet zones was done, should he fight agains USSR ? Benes didn't give senior posts to anybody, can you be more specific, what do you mean ? There was not a democratic process of elections even after the war, when the country was directed from Russia, and the communists were well prepared to gain the power straight when the war was over by occupying the local city/district government offices and positions. The last point is, that communists didn't STAGED A COUP, but non-communist government members left the government, without real discussion with others, and so the communists were able to reconstruct the government without using any bit of power or agression, totally legal way. Not a mistake of Benes, not a coup, but big mistake of government members !!!michael mills wrote:That fact was explicitly recognised by Benes, who on 12 December 1943 signed a treaty with the Soviet Union that bound Czechoslovakia to that country in the post-war period. He also gave senior postions to Czech Communists, who in February 1948 staged the coup that consolidated full Communist power. He did not keep those agreements secret, but openly proclaimed and published them.
Ahh, again, everything was "clear", the people "knew" what we know now, the information were "correct and clear", and so it was everybody's decision ... you fool ! Even now it is not clear, what happend in Soviet Union ! And to say, that in 1939-45, the soldiers fighting in Great Britain knew, that after the war back in Czechoslovakia they will go to prison, to the uranium mines, that they will be executed, it ABSOLUTE NONSENSE, and I'm really upset to read something like that. Please stay with your opinion in Australia and don't try to comment something on the other side of the world 60 years old, when you don't have imagination how it looked like!michael mills wrote:Accordingly, Siska and all Czechs must have been well aware that a post-war Czechoslovakia would be dominated by the Communists. The experience of the purges in the Soviet Union in the 1930s would have taught any clear-minded person what Communist domination meant.
And this is the end of it all. Maybe you think that UK and USA when fighting agains Nazis helped to settle up the Communist domination, don't you ? Because thats exactly what you said - someone fighting agains German helped Communist. Please, wake up !michael mills wrote:By fighting against the Germans, Siska helped to bring that Communist domination about. Having got into bed with the Soviets, he cannot complain if he ended up getting shafted.
To be trully honest, as a Czech person, as someone, who knows members of Siska's family, as someone, who met Mr. Siska and other fighters in person I feel really upset that exists people like you, who can say such a stupid things ! I'm not proud of what the country and the nation did to those people, and they really suffered. But I'm proud of every one of them, they gave everything they had to defeat Germany. And they succeed, many of them died. I won't let anyone like you to attack those heroes !!!
-
michael mills
- Member
- Posts: 9000
- Joined: 11 Mar 2002, 13:42
- Location: Sydney, Australia
Letus wrote:
The facts is that Soviet domination of Czechoslovakia could only come about through the defeat of Germany. Accordingly, those Czechs like Siska who actively helped to bring about the defeat of Germany contributed to the fastening of Soviet domination on thier own country. If they were eventually persecuted by the Communists whom they had helped come to power through defeating Germany, that represents a form of poetic justice in my opinion.
If you bring a lion into your house to drive out the jackals, you have only yourself to blame if the lion soon turns and eats you.
Here is what Benes said in a broadcast to Czechoslovakia from Radio Moscow on 21 December 1943, concerning the treaty he had just concluded with the Soviet Union (quoted in "Memoirs of Dr Eduard Benes", Note 9, page 289):
The above quote also shows that Benes was planning to fasten a Communist economic system on Czechoslovakia.
Benes was also relishing the prospect of wreaking revenge on the Czech and Slovak collaborators with Germany. In the event, the defeat of Germany gave the followers of Benes and their Communist allies the opportunity to punish those collaborators. But then the Communists punished the Benes supporters (eg people like Siska), and finally the Communists started punishing each other. All in all, quite a lot of Czechs ended up dangling at the end of a strand of piano wire, and they had nobody to blame but themselves.
So I shed no tears for Siska. He and his family should have thanked heaven that he was merely imprisoned, and was not one of those hanged.
That Letus is upset leaves me unmoved. He needs to learn to confront historical reality unflinchingly, and not take refuge in comforting myths.To be trully honest, as a Czech person, as someone, who knows members of Siska's family, as someone, who met Mr. Siska and other fighters in person I feel really upset that exists people like you, who can say such a stupid things !
The facts is that Soviet domination of Czechoslovakia could only come about through the defeat of Germany. Accordingly, those Czechs like Siska who actively helped to bring about the defeat of Germany contributed to the fastening of Soviet domination on thier own country. If they were eventually persecuted by the Communists whom they had helped come to power through defeating Germany, that represents a form of poetic justice in my opinion.
If you bring a lion into your house to drive out the jackals, you have only yourself to blame if the lion soon turns and eats you.
Here is what Benes said in a broadcast to Czechoslovakia from Radio Moscow on 21 December 1943, concerning the treaty he had just concluded with the Soviet Union (quoted in "Memoirs of Dr Eduard Benes", Note 9, page 289):
So, it appears that the Germans and their Czech and Slovak collaborators were warning the people of Czechoslovakia that the defeat of Germany would mean that their country would be swallowed up by the Soviet Union. Benes called on the people not to believe those warnings, but history shows that the German warnings were 100% correct.Thirdly, the Treaty expressly refers to our future co-operation in every direction as that of two completely free and independent States. It fully respects our sovereignty and provides for mutual non-interference in one another's internal affairs. By this, we both wanted to prove as plainly as possible to the whole world that the propaganda of the Germans and their treacherous Czech and Slovak Quislings is both stupid and extremely mendacious. [my emphasis]. It has already been emphasised during the Moscow Conference of the three Great Powers that these Powers in general and the Soviet Union in particular fully respect the independence of the smaller Nations and States, that they want a strong Czechoslovakia, a strong Poland, a strong Yugoslavia and, of course, also an independent Austria, Rumania, Bulgaria, Hungary and Finland.
You at home, in Prague, in the Czech provinces and in Slovakia should not heed therefore the slanderous Nazi propaganda which so foolishly proclaims that the Soviet Union wants to devour us [my emphasis]. Do not heed this propaganda from the standpoint of internal politics either. Immediately after the war our State will freely establish its political regime with a very limited number of political parties - I, personally, would wish only three. It will be a democratic State - a real People's State. Immediately after the fall of Germany it will have its new Government which will also represent our whole national home front. Only Fascists, Nazis and all treacherous evil-doers of the war period will be excluded from it and from its benefits. These of course must be swallowed up in the abyss of their catastrophe. They will have to atone for their guilt, their crimes and their treason - just as in all the other liberated countries of Europe.
Our State will also carry out a number of social and economic changes. It will accept in its policy and in its economy the system of planning for which already some of our economists worked before the war. I myself expect and will endeavour to secure that the whole poitical, economic, and social - and especially also the ethnical - post-war reconstruction of our new State shall be carried out at a great speed, chiefly on the basis of the programme of our well-considered and scientifically-prepared first Five-Year-Plan.
The above quote also shows that Benes was planning to fasten a Communist economic system on Czechoslovakia.
Benes was also relishing the prospect of wreaking revenge on the Czech and Slovak collaborators with Germany. In the event, the defeat of Germany gave the followers of Benes and their Communist allies the opportunity to punish those collaborators. But then the Communists punished the Benes supporters (eg people like Siska), and finally the Communists started punishing each other. All in all, quite a lot of Czechs ended up dangling at the end of a strand of piano wire, and they had nobody to blame but themselves.
So I shed no tears for Siska. He and his family should have thanked heaven that he was merely imprisoned, and was not one of those hanged.
As I said, you are so clever NOW ... but they didnt know what we know.
I just have to
, when I see these "anti-communist fighters" like you, saying words about poetic justice and bulls*its like that. By your words, figthing againts Germany = let the communists gain part of the Europe ... Hmm, interesting. Well, by these words you are saying, that all the brave soldiers fighting against Nazis helped communists, because it was plain that ... : Well, funny enough
And Siska's family may thank only that there are not so many people like you ...
I just have to
, when I see these "anti-communist fighters" like you, saying words about poetic justice and bulls*its like that. By your words, figthing againts Germany = let the communists gain part of the Europe ... Hmm, interesting. Well, by these words you are saying, that all the brave soldiers fighting against Nazis helped communists, because it was plain that ... : Well, funny enough And Siska's family may thank only that there are not so many people like you ...
