Dutch and Belgian Army-1940

Discussions on the Allies and the Neutral States in general and the countries that does not have sections of their own.
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Andy H
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#16

Post by Andy H » 27 Sep 2002, 18:44

dGR wrote
evntually the king Leopold III decided to surrender ( a lot of misery for him because of that after the war )
Was there a viable alternative for him to take and to what end?

:D Andy from the Shire

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de-gouden-ridder
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#17

Post by de-gouden-ridder » 02 Oct 2002, 20:50

Cheshire Yeomanry wrote:dGR wrote
evntually the king Leopold III decided to surrender ( a lot of misery for him because of that after the war )
Was there a viable alternative for him to take and to what end?

:D Andy from the Shire
Now, there wasn't really an alternative, but Belgium was capable to resist a bit longer -> more losses.
In fact, everybody was happy to see the young men back alive so quick, but after the war, the Walloons had a reason to be angry at the too "pro-German" king.


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#18

Post by Pantherblaster » 03 Oct 2002, 20:36

Yes, well offcourse Belgium resisted longer did you see what allied ground forces moved into Begium when the German offensive was launched???

Exactly one (!) French division went into The Netherlands and panicked when they made their first and last attack against the German Paratroopers holding the Moerdijk bridges!!! They had more than enough armoured cars to capture that bridge.

We did take out the German Air Assault Infantry Division in and around The Hague as an effective fighting unit. While, the Gerries lost quite a number of aircraft there too. We also had better fighter aircraft than the Belgians.

The rest except airdefence, marines and the navy, the Belgians were better equipped, had larger armed forces were a better fighting force overall, I would say (Nowadays that's quite different though, but this is a history forum so that doesn't matter)

Regards,

Pantherblaster 8)

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#19

Post by Pantherblaster » 03 Oct 2002, 20:39

Btw why didn't Leopold go to France or the UK??? What's the use of letting a symbol of national unity be kept hostage in his palace??? He could be stirring up the resistance movement from abroad just to name something.

Regards,

Pantherblaster 8)

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Sam H.
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#20

Post by Sam H. » 03 Oct 2002, 21:08

Leopold, as King was also the nominal commander of the armed forces of Belguim. He feld honor bound to share the fate of his men ... it would be hard to slink away and ask your troops to fight on without you.

(then again ... didn't McArthur do this?)

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#21

Post by de-gouden-ridder » 04 Oct 2002, 07:13

Pantherblaster wrote: The rest except airdefence, marines and the navy, the Belgians were better equipped, had larger armed forces were a better fighting force overall, I would say (Nowadays that's quite different though, but this is a history forum so that doesn't matter)
)
Yes, In those times the Belgian army wasn't bad at all if you look to the seize(? how big it is) of the country. :)
I don't say the Netherlands weren't good, but we were just a bit better. (Yes, now that has changed (a lot) :? .

And like said before bu Sam H. there is no honor to go to London with the Belgian gouvernment and ask to resist. They had easy talking. Now, staying in Brussels was in the best of the (former)nation.

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#22

Post by Pantherblaster » 05 Oct 2002, 01:32

Belgian army was better than the Dutch, I would say the Air Forces would be very closely matched, the Dutch navy ofcourse was stronger than the Begian river patrol (LOL!).

Ehhmmmm... I don't aggree with letting your head of the monarchy stay behind like a hostage. Migth sound nice for the first few months (staying behind with the troops), but what can he/she do a year, 2, 3, 4, 5 years later??? In the case of the Belgian monarch not much, while the Dutch monarch, I believe, was able to do much more (call on active resistance forinstance or for nationalstrikings).

Regards uit Nederland,

Pantherblaster

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Jef
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#23

Post by Jef » 15 Oct 2002, 22:46

Hi everybody,

i'm new on this forum.
I've found the detailed order of battle of the dutch army on this page:

http://www.netcomuk.co.uk/~dpohara/dutch1940.htm

armament of the dutch army:

gun :Manlicher 1895 model caliber 7,5 mm
ligt machine gun : Lewis 1920 model caliber 6.5 mm
heavy machine gun : Schwarlose 08-15 1918 modified caliber 7,9 mm
mortar : Stokes-brandt 81 mm 20 shoots /minute
antitankrifle Oerlikon (or Solothurn Swiss license of the oerlikon) caliber 20 mm
antitankgun Boehler 47 mm 20 shoots /minute

artillery:
gun 70 veld (real caliber 75 mm) it's a krupp model 1902-04.
Bofors 105 mm
Bofors howitzer 120 mm

light armoured vehicles :
12 pantserwagens M 36 armed with a Lewis machine gun
12 pantserwagens M 38 same as below
7 pantserwagens DAF M39 armed with 2 Lewis guns

The policy of Nederlands was to defend 2 sectors:
the line Grebbe-Preel
the "Vestig Holland"(inside was the Hague, Rotterdam, Utrecht and Amsterdam)
The dutch governement was neutral like the belgian.
That's why they didn't trained with the belgian and french armies.


Some words about the french operations in Nederland.

The frencharmy sent the 7th army in Belgium and Nederland in accordance to the "Dyle-Breda manoeuvre" the 10 th may by road.


The 224 IR is sent by boat to Flessingue. fought on the Zuid Nerverland. Without success. The german side of the channel was higher as the other side. 2 battallions are prisoners.

About the bridge of Moedijk:
1st DLM (light mechanized division) is near the Moedijk at he dawn of 11th may.
400 hundreds germans paratroopers (according dutch sources) were retrenched in the dutch concrete bunkers near the bridge.
front of the DLM.
In the night of the 11th may the belgian army on the right flank left a triangle formed with 3 channels (Turnhout, Campines and Albert).
12 th may : the 9 Panzerdivision came on contact with the french; french resisted.
But on the south, on the right flank, an german ID crossed the Truhout channel.
General Picard, comander of the DLM, thought about an audacious operation : destroy this german head with 2 Hotchkiss H 39 (light tank, 37 mm gun) battalions.
French engineers built a light bridge. the ftanks crossed it direction a town named Moll and occupied it. A little number of tanks were destroyed, but always by direct hit near the tank, during progression. They didn't retreat. They waited the infantry all the day. But she never came. At the dawn the H 39 received the order to return back.
the 13 th may the DLM received the order to cross the Albert channel.
french operations in Holland were finished.

I always quote my sources on forums. My source is:
"Blitzkrieg à l'ouest" Militaria Magazine HS n°8

Jef

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k

#24

Post by Wolffen » 16 Oct 2002, 12:18

true

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Thomhasj
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#25

Post by Thomhasj » 20 Oct 2002, 18:55

When the Germans tried to capture the airfield around The Hague, we (the Dutch) inflicted heavy casualties to the German paratroopers and airlanding troops. It's because the poor equipment of the Dutch that made the eventual loss possible. However, one airfield was recaptured. Our position at the Afsluitdijk was maintained the entire battle, and was only gave up after the capitulation.

So, in spite of our lack of good equipment, the Dutch fought bravely to resist a supreme and powerful enemy.

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Dutch Army

#26

Post by timman19 » 13 Jan 2003, 22:45

Well, even though they only lasted five days, the Dutch Army put up one heck of a fight. The German Army got into a bigger fight then they bargained for. One thing I have not seen posted in this topic is why the Dutch fought as well as they did.

One of the main reasons why is that the knew the attack was coming. I have read numerous references to this. Supposedly Dutch agents in Berlin learned of the attack and the Dutch Army was on the alert. Unfortunately for the Dutch, the alert did not reach all of the troops especially those on the border who were quickly overrun.

I think what happened in the end was bound to happen anyway. The Dutch were too ill-equipped to put up much more resistance then they did.

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#27

Post by Musashi » 16 Jan 2003, 14:35

de-gouden-ridder wrote: Anyhow, the Belgian army was unique. The were able to resist the German army longer than the Dutch one, but evntually the king Leopold III decided to surrender ( a lot of misery for him because of that after the war :| )
Really?
The Belgians resisted longer than the Dutch, because the allies helped them. There is no other reason. However it was a mistake, because the allies left well-fortified positions in France and were overcome by high mobile German troops in the open field.
By the way:
the Germans used a saboteur unit "Branderburg" to seize important bridges and points.
Last edited by Musashi on 20 Jan 2004, 00:18, edited 1 time in total.

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Dutch Army

#28

Post by timman19 » 16 Jan 2003, 19:42

The Dutch defense strategy was to withdraw into "Fortress Holland" upon being attached. This it did but they had problems with German paratrooper units dropped behind their lines although a lot of these units were driven off in a Dutch counter-attack.

As for the Brandenbergers, it is correct that they were used to seize important crossings. They wore Dutch uniforms and approached Dutch sentries who were supposedly on alert. On the other hand, this was a brilliant plan as most troops would not suspect anything of soldiers wearing the same uniform.

Again, the Dutch did the best that they could do under the circumstances. The were holding firm at Rotterdam before the bombing attack was ordered. This was threatened in order to force the Dutch to surrender, and, unfortunately, carried out after the surrender order had been given but that is a controversy perhaps best saved for another topic.

Had the Germans not bombed Rotterdam, perhaps the Dutch might have been able to hold out for a few more days but with its air force wiped out at that point, it was only a matter of time. Only the French tried to aid the Dutch and they did not get very far. For the most part, the Dutch Army was on its own. Considering their army and its lack of experience, they did quite well.

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The Germans got their asses wooped by the Dutch

#29

Post by G-1Reaper » 11 Dec 2003, 23:01

I am very proud about the Dutch resisting the German juggernaut warmachine. With the poor equipment (about fifty percent of Dutch regiments did not have the full equipment concerning guns, mortars and machineguns), poor training (most soldiers had never seen a handgranade before, and fired just several shots in their military career)
Despite the odds they performed extremely well, mainly because of the rockhard mentality of the excellent officers who fought at the line themselves to inspire the men. Mortality rate among the officers was very high (19%), the highest among other allied armies. Main problems in the army were the poorly functioning machineguns Lewis and Schwarzlose, the poor comunication capabilities and the lack of pillboxes (although those that were placed proved deadly, tough to knock out and very well camouflaged) On numerous ocasions German soldiers even refused to pass any earth mound which COULD BE a bunker... Also, the Germans said after the war that they rather fought 3 Frenchmen than 1 Dutch soldier. (the dutch thought the French were no-good cowards in battle too) Also, on numorous occasions entire German regiments were held up by only a handfull of Dutch soldiers with one or two light Lewis machineguns and some guns... The German commander of the 412th regiment was very humiliated when he found out that he had lost over 70 of his men while fighting 12 Dutch soldiers. After the battle he asked where the other defenders went, and where the concrete bunkers were (there weren't any, the majority of the Dutch defences were made from earth and wood)

Also, the first German defeats were in the Netherlands, with the destruction of the German luftflotte around the Hague, with more than 2000 para's being transported to England. Secondly, the Germans could not pass the "afsluitdijk" between Fryslan and Noord Holland, where they lost some 900 men in battle.

Comparing the Dutch and Belgian airforces is not that hard. The Belgians used seriously outdated aircraft, of which many were destroyed on the ground. The Dutch flew more sorties, more effectively and shot more aircraft down. Trying to be unbiased though. :D
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#30

Post by timman19 » 19 Jan 2004, 22:04

I just noticed that this posting was updated as I haven't been here in a while.

Anyway, there was little the Dutch could do under the circumstances. Some units fought very bravely and the Army did manage to throw some of the German paratroopers out of some of the airfields that they captured. Unfortunately for Germany, many of its highly trained paratroopers were captured by Dutch troops who were shipped off to England prior to the Dutch surrender. There, they spent the rest of the war were they could have taken part in other operations.

What really caught the Dutch off guard was the paratoop drops. They expected Germany to attack from the frontier. They did so but having paratroopers in their rear caused havoc. Also, many Dutch units were wasted responding to false paratroop drops or looking for "fifth columnists".

Clearly, the Germans were surprised by the tenacity of the Dutch Army and it took the raizing of Rotterdam to get them to surrender. The Germans clearly took the Dutch too lightly. As a young ROTC cadet in college, I took a course in tactics and the invasion of Holland was used as an example as to never take your oppenent lightly.

That's my two cents.

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