Greek weapons and vehicles

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Dili
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Re: Greek weapons and vehicles

Post by Dili » 10 Apr 2010 23:23

Stepback it might be Whitehead in England:

1907 Vickers and Armstrong-Whitworth secure joint control of Whitehead's businesses.
1907 Weymouth Works incorporated as separate Company under English Law
1914 Factory taken over by British Admiralty for duration of First World War
1921 Whitehead Torpedo Works, (Ferrybridge) liquidated.
1923 Weymouth (Ferrybridge) Works reopened as the Whitehead Torpedo Company, Limited.
1928 Majority of shares in the Whitehead Torpedo Works, Weymouth, acquired by newly formed Vickers-Armstrong Company
1931 Remaining Whitehead family shares acquired by V-A

http://www.users.globalnet.co.uk/~wyked ... uction.htm

Idomeneas
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Re: Greek weapons and vehicles

Post by Idomeneas » 11 Apr 2010 14:59

In the contest of the Hellenic Navy during 1923, 4 companies participated all offering Whitehead torpedoes types.
Italian Fiume, Italian Silurificio, English Whitehead, French Whitehead Saint Troppez.
Finally the english company was preferred. When those torpedoes were delivered it was proved they were problematic.

Idomeneas

Dili
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Re: Greek weapons and vehicles

Post by Dili » 11 Apr 2010 17:45

Wonderful Idomeneas, can you know if the submarine and destroyer torpedos were different models or it was one model for both ships and how many were bought?

Regards

Idomeneas
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Re: Greek weapons and vehicles

Post by Idomeneas » 11 Apr 2010 20:23

My friend Dili, as I told you the only known orders (to me) for torpedoes, was this in 1914 for Swartzkopff and the other one of 1924 for Whitehead.
The second order was for 50 units. As I wrote previously, they were proved problematic in their use, and their order was considered a big scandal during '20s.
According to the initial plans, they were to be used by both submarines and destroyers, and there is no mentioning of different variants.
I don't think the Hellenic Navy fought in WW II with this torpedoes in it arsenal. I have the impression that they torpedoes were sold to Spain, during the Civil War (as a defective material), but I do not have any other info about another order that replaced them.

Idomeneas

Dili
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Re: Greek weapons and vehicles

Post by Dili » 11 Apr 2010 22:49

Thanks Idomeneas that clouds the issue again. It is still some information. Good chances of a buy will be when Italian Destroyers or the two British DD's were ordered.

Sturm78
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Re: Greek weapons and vehicles

Post by Sturm78 » 19 Sep 2010 14:19

Hi all,

I found this image on http://www.modelclub.gr/forums/index.ph ... 2.225.html. Vickers tanks and Carden-Loyd tankette.

In this forum are also several photos of Greek Pavesi tractors towing artillery but I can not download them. :( Can somebody help me, please?

Regards Sturm78
You do not have the required permissions to view the files attached to this post.

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AVV
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Re: Greek weapons and vehicles

Post by AVV » 19 Sep 2010 14:50

Hello!
Sturm78 wrote:In this forum are also several photos of Greek Pavesi tractors towing artillery but I can not download them.

Me too. :(
Still there are some nice photos there, so, thanks for the link! :)

Best regards, Aleks

Dili
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Re: Greek weapons and vehicles

Post by Dili » 21 Sep 2010 21:27

Copy your screen(print screen in your keyboard) and paste(clipboard) in an image application like xnview, mspaint then save.

YAN
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Re: Greek weapons and vehicles

Post by YAN » 23 Nov 2010 15:04

Hi, I have put together a standard infantry company for the Greek army around 1941, I have omitted supply and other none fighting units if you want to use it in a wargame senario.

Greek Rifle Company 1941
Company HQ
1 x Captain (7.62mm M.1929 pistol) + Horse
1 x Company Sgt (7.62mm M.1929 pistol)
1 x Batmen (6.5mm M1903/14 rifle)
1 x Bugler (6.5mm M1903/14 rifle)
2 x Runners (6.5mm M1903/14 rifles)
3 x Men (6.5mm M1903/14 Rifles)

4 x Rifle Platoons each:
Platoon HQ
1 x Lieutenant (7.62mm M.1929 pistol)
1 x Platoon Sgt (7.62mm M.1929 pistol)
1 x Batman (6.5mm M1903/14 rifle)
2 x Runners (6.5mm M1903/14 rifles)


3 x Rifle Sections each:
1 x Corporal (6.5mm M1903/14 rifle)
1 x Lance Corporal (6.5mm M1903/14 rifle)
1 x LMG Team
1 x Gunner (7.62mm M.1929 pistol)
1 x Loader (6.5mm M1903/14 rifle)
1 x 8mm M.1909 LMG
1 x Rifle Grenadier (1 x VB Grenade Launcher)
6 x Men (6.5mm M1903/14 rifles)

Battalion Support

MMG Section
2 x MMGs Squads each:
1 x Corporal (6.5mm M1903/14 rifle)
2 x Gunners (7.62mm M.1929 pistols)
2 x Loaders (6.5mm M1903/14 rifles)
1 x 8mm M.01/16 MMG

Infantry Gun Section
2 x Squads each:
1 x Corporals (6.5mm M1903/14 rifles)
2 x Gunners (7.62mm M.1929 pistols)
2 x Loaders (6.5mm M1903/14 rifles)
1 x 65mm M.1906 Infantry Gun
I think this is not far off the mark.
Yan.

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xristar
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Re: Greek weapons and vehicles

Post by xristar » 01 Dec 2010 12:27

YAN wrote:

3 x Rifle Sections each:
1 x Corporal (6.5mm M1903/14 rifle)
1 x Lance Corporal (6.5mm M1903/14 rifle)
1 x LMG Team
1 x Gunner (7.62mm M.1929 pistol)
1 x Loader (6.5mm M1903/14 rifle)
1 x 8mm M.1909 LMG
1 x Rifle Grenadier (1 x VB Grenade Launcher)
6 x Men (6.5mm M1903/14 rifles)


What's your source? According to the "squad leader's manual" I have, from April 1938, some things differ. I know that the actual squad in 1940 was different than that of the manual but still, some things probably didn't change. Here are some remarks (you choose what applies or not):
-Squad leader is a sergeant (lochias), assistant is a corporal (dekaneas).
-Squad has ideally 13 men, the least is 8 men (however, I think the regulation strength by 1940 had dropped to 11 men). It is divided into the rifle half-squad and the LMG half-squad. Priority is given to the LMG-half squad, which has to have at least three men: gunner, loader, ammo carrier.
-LMG half-squad normally has four members:gunner, loader, two ammo carriers. Gunner and loader carry pistols, ammo-carriers carry carbines (ie shorter Mannlicher rifles)
-standard LMG is either the Hotchkiss M1922/26 in 6,5mmX54mm or the Chauchat M1915 in 8mm. Chauchats were replaced whenever possible with italian captured pieces (Breda m1937 in 6,5mmX53mm). I don't know what the "M1909 8mm" piece is.
-rifle half-squad normally consists of 6 men -all armed with standard rifles. Rifle half-squad is led by a lance-corporal (ypodekaneas).
-rifle grenadier carries the Lebel M.1886/93 rifle in 8mm (from which he fires the VB grenades). He is not part of the rifle half-squad.

Since the standard squad had 11 men (instead of 13 men) that would make a plausible squad look like this:

Squad command (2 men):
-Squad leader (sergeant), with rifle
-squad assistant-leader (corporal), with rifle
LMG half-squad (3 men):
-LMG gunner, with pistol; he carries the LMG
-LMG loader, with pistol
-LMG ammo carrier, with carbine
Rifle half-squad (5 men):
-Rifle half-squad leader (lance corporal), with rifle and 3 offensive hand-grenades
-4 riflemen, each with a rifle and 3 off. hand-grenades
Squad rifle grenade launcher (1 man):
-rifle-grenadier, with Lebel rifle and VB launcher (carries 8 rifle-grenades on him)

EDIT: Now that I think of it, it's very probable that it was preffered to have 4 men in the LMG half-squad and 4 men in the rifle half-squad than the 3+5 which I mention above, in order to carry the necessary quantities of LMG ammunition.

Ammunition carried:
Leader: 50 rifle rounds, 25 LMG rounds, 2 mags
assistant: 50 rifle rounds, 50 LMG rounds, 2 mags
LMG gunner: 75 LMG rounds, 3 mags, 24 pistol rounds
LMG loader: 325 LMG rounds, 13 mags, 24 pistol rounds
LMG ammo carrier: 50 rifle rounds, 250 LMG rounds, 13 mags
Rifle half-squad leader: 150 rifle rounds, 25 LMG rds, 1 mag
riflemen: same as above
Last edited by xristar on 01 Dec 2010 18:07, edited 1 time in total.

YAN
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Re: Greek weapons and vehicles

Post by YAN » 01 Dec 2010 13:39

Thanks for the reply xristar, I found this data about 4 years ago and I am sure it was on a greek site but I cannot remeber because it was on a floppy disc, I will have a look to see if the site is still running. I will amend my TO&E yours seems more correct then mine and I am glad you replied.
Yan.

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xristar
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Re: Greek weapons and vehicles

Post by xristar » 20 Apr 2011 10:19

YAN wrote:Hi, I have put together a standard infantry company for the Greek army around 1941, I have omitted supply and other none fighting units if you want to use it in a wargame senario.

Greek Rifle Company 1941
Company HQ
1 x Captain (7.62mm M.1929 pistol) + Horse
1 x Company Sgt (7.62mm M.1929 pistol)
1 x Batmen (6.5mm M1903/14 rifle)
1 x Bugler (6.5mm M1903/14 rifle)
2 x Runners (6.5mm M1903/14 rifles)
3 x Men (6.5mm M1903/14 Rifles)

4 x Rifle Platoons each:
Platoon HQ
1 x Lieutenant (7.62mm M.1929 pistol)
1 x Platoon Sgt (7.62mm M.1929 pistol)
1 x Batman (6.5mm M1903/14 rifle)
2 x Runners (6.5mm M1903/14 rifles)


3 x Rifle Sections each:
...

Battalion Support

MMG Section
2 x MMGs Squads each:
1 x Corporal (6.5mm M1903/14 rifle)
2 x Gunners (7.62mm M.1929 pistols)
2 x Loaders (6.5mm M1903/14 rifles)
1 x 8mm M.01/16 MMG

Infantry Gun Section
2 x Squads each:
1 x Corporals (6.5mm M1903/14 rifles)
2 x Gunners (7.62mm M.1929 pistols)
2 x Loaders (6.5mm M1903/14 rifles)
1 x 65mm M.1906 Infantry Gun
I think this is not far off the mark.
Yan.

Ok, it's been some time but I checked those info closer and came to realise that they do not conform with my knowledge. In my last post I focused on the rifle squads (or sections) because II knew them from a manual. Now I realise that neither the rest conform with my little knowledge on the subject. I won't pretend I know much, in fact there is already a table of organisation on http://ww2greece.wargaming.info/TOandEs.htm which sums upwhat I would say. Basically in a few words:
-Platoons also had a VB rifle-grendier (thus 4 per platoon)
-Battalions had a machinegun company with 12 MMG (three platoons of 4 pieces each). Battalions had no other heavy weapons.
-Regiments had a machines company (ie heavy weapons), with four 81mm mortars and two 65mm infantry guns.

Standard medium machine gun was the Hotchkiss M.1914, but because there were not enough of them, some regiments had the St. Etienne M.1907. during the war other machineguns also entered service in limited numbers, namely british and captured italian models.
The 65mm M.1906 infantry gun suffered from attrition and during the war several regiments had italian 65mm guns (don't recall model) and 47mm AT guns (about fifty 47mm guns entered service with the Greek army) as infantry guns.

YAN
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Re: Greek weapons and vehicles

Post by YAN » 20 Apr 2011 12:55

Hi Xristar, nice to hear from you. I have amended things along the same lines you have quoted, please see below.

Command squad
Sergeant (rifle)
Corporal (rifle)

LMG half-squad
LMG gunner (8mm M.1909 + pistol)
LMG loader (pistol)
2 x LMG ammo carriers (carbine)

Rifle half-squad
Lance corporal (rifle and 3 x hand-grenades)
3 x riflemen (rifle and 3 x hand-grenades each)

Squad rifle grenadier
1 X Rifle grenadier (Lebel rifle and VB launcher + 8 rifle-grenades)

you Said that each platoon had 4 x VBs, but an Infantry Platoon has only three squads with one VB each squad, would that mean 3 x VBs ?, also what was the Carnine carried by the ammo men in each LMG half-squad.
Regards Yan.

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xristar
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Re: Greek weapons and vehicles

Post by xristar » 20 Apr 2011 13:42

YAN wrote:LMG gunner (8mm M.1909 + pistol)


As I've already said, the Hotchkiss M.1922/26 in 6.5mmX54mm was the standard LMG, of which over 6,000 were purchased. Some regiments had the old Chauchat M.1915 in 8mm of which about 11,800 were in service/storage. The Chauchat was very common in newly raised regiments (such as those that faced the Germans in 1941). Other important LMG were the captured in Albania and Libya Italian Breda M.30 (originally in 6.5mmX52mm), which in Greek service were modified to fire the Greek 6.5mmX54mm cartridge. About 2,300 captured M.30 were gathered in Greek stocks although not more than a about 800 had been issued to service by the time Greece fell.

The M.1909 to which you insist so much, does not appear to have been in Greek service, at least not as a light machinegun. About 1,000 "Hotchkiss Machineguns" (unknown if these are the M.1909) were supplied from Britain in January 1941 to Greece, but they were lacking tripods and ammunition and were not issued. They were chambered in 7.7mm (ie .303in), not in 8mm. Work had begun for the manufacture of tripods and they were expected to be ready to be fielded in May 1941.

YAN wrote:you Said that each platoon had 4 x VBs, but an Infantry Platoon has only three squads with one VB each squad, would that mean 3 x VBs ?, also what was the Carnine carried by the ammo men in each LMG half-squad.
Regards Yan.

The Platoon HQ had a VB itself. A total of 3+1 VB per platoon.
In Mannlicher-equipped regiments, carbines were the Mannlicher carbines, essentially identical to the rifles, except their length. In Mauser-equipped regiments, since the k98 was itself a carbine (and there is no mentioning of other Mauser carbines being purchased) I suspect they all carried the standard Mauser rifle-carbine.

Cheers

YAN
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Re: Greek weapons and vehicles

Post by YAN » 20 Apr 2011 16:25

Sorry about the LMG Xristar I forgot to change it before I cut and Pasted the post. I have a small HQ in my Infantry Platoon,

1 x Lieutenant (7.62mm M.1929 pistol)
1 x Platoon Sgt (7.62mm M.1929 pistol)
1 x Batman (6.5mm M1903/14 rifle)
2 x Runners (6.5mm M1903/14 rifles)

Do you know if this is right and who was equipped with the VB

Regards Yan.

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