Heavy and long-range bombers of the allies - exact losses

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Juha Tompuri
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Post by Juha Tompuri » 08 Jan 2007 23:41

Thanks for the info BP
BP wrote:Total: 53 bombers were lost, 40 survived the war.
There were flyable 40 planes left when the war ended?


Few details to the TB-7 crash at Lapinjärvi:

Image
http://forum.axishistory.com/viewtopic. ... &start=105

The book Lapinjärven Historia states that the time of the crash was 0210 hours 11th August 1941, and the colour photos of that plane are from the same day.
As I have earlier posted, it has mentions that it got hit from Soviet AAA over Estonia before Berlin.
The book also mentions that before the crash the pilot died and the co-pilot baled out.
The survivors were captured by local civil guard.

Book: Lapinjärven Veteraanikirja mentions the following:
The plane came down with two engines on fire, hit a large rock and broke in two just behind the wings.
Tail part "flew" away some 30 meters from the rest of burning wreck.

A friend of mine who has visited the site, told that in addition to the memorial plate at the rock I earlier mentioned, there is now also a marbel stone with the names of the fallen crew, and lots of remains of used candels.
He also mentioned that the wreck pieces, after had been transported to the Utti airfield, where later transported to Germany.

Regards, Juha

P.S. is the brown clad soldier at the photo a Soviet (crew member)?

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BIGpanzer
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Post by BIGpanzer » 09 Jan 2007 01:45

Thanks for the info, Juha!
Juha wrote:
There were flyable 40 planes left when the war ended?
The most part was flyable and some bombers were under small repair. AFAIK 45th long-range air division had 31 Pe-8 in flyable condition in the mid1945. Nevertheless, all heavy bombers of that type were investigated in detail after catastrophe with No. 42811 in September 1945 (see above), as the result 19 Pe-8 were not allowed to make flights in the beg1946 because of possible fatique of longerons. Soon all Pe-8s were officially discarded from military service as heavy bombers (in the mid1946), but some of them were used by Air Force as flying labs for testing new engines and aircraft equipment, also as carriers for experimental rocket aircraft and guided missiles till ~1950. The last Pe-8s were successfully used by civil polar aviation till the mid1950s at least.
Juha wrote:
As I have earlier posted, it has mentions that it got hit from Soviet AAA over Estonia before Berlin
As I have earlier posted this is a mistake (but many sources still mention that, confusing the bombers!). Soviet anti-aircraft artillery of Baltic Sea Navy damaged another TB-7 (1st pilot - captain A. Tyagunin), participated in the same raid against Berlin (AA shell hit wing of the bomber, which returned back after bombardment of Berlin on 3 engines as 4th engine stopped). That happened on the way back and captain Tyagunin made emergency landing on Soviet territory. The problem was that nobody informed Soviet naval AA artillery and fighter units about the planned raid against Berlin because of high level of secrecy, even pilots of participating TB-7 and Yer-2 heard about the target of the raid the same day the raid started. In addition, Soviet AA artillerymen and fighter pilots didn't know about new four-engine heavy bombers even [TB-7 was passed into service in March 1941 officially and the first Soviet AA units got the info about silhouettes of TB-7 only in July 1941] and thought that they attacked German Fw200 Condors. Some historians think also that the person, who was responsible for the informing Soviet AA units about bombers just before the raid started, was the German agent and he didn't do this (but I believe that the problem was in high level of secrecy and bad hurried organization of the raid during one day only according to Stalin's order despite the reasonable protest of Vodopianov).
By the way that was the most unsuccessful raid of TB-7/Pe-8 during WWII - 5 from 8 heavy bombers were lost [1 crashed during take-off because of engine problems; 4 bombers, damaged by AA fire, crashed during emergency landings, 2 landed on another Soviet airfields because of engine problems/fuel shortage, only 1 landed on home airfield - 5-6 bombers bombed German territory [2 dropped bombs over Berlin]. The "guilty person" was found immediately by Stalin's commission - that was commander of 81st long-range air division Vodopianov (who participated in the raid personally as the pilot, his 2nd pilot was E. Pusep, and their TB-7 made emergency landing in German-occupied Estonia on the way back, in 2 days the crew reached Soviet positions by foot thanks to Estonian Pusep). But Vodopianov was extremelly famous and experienced polar and army pilot of 1930s and one of the first Heroes of USSR, so he was not arrested but degraded from commander of division to the 1st pilot [nevertheless, he kept his high military rank]. During the Battle of Moscow in autumn 1941 Vodopianov led two TB-7 into almost suicide attack - he should attack German tanks, which pierced Soviet defense near Kaluga, from very low altitude during the daytime, but he accomplished the mission and returned back despite of strong damages of both heavy bombers from Flak fire.
Juha wrote:
The book also mentions that before the crash the pilot died and the co-pilot baled out.
The survivors were captured by local civil guard
About co-pilot I agree as his body was not found in TB-7 after crash and he was not captured by Finns together with survived crewmembers (he was captured alone in another place), but why did pilot (senior lieutenant Panfilov) die before the crash not during/after the crash? On the other hand, pilot Panfilov was one of the most experienced civil pilots of 1930s, so if he died before the crash that could be the reason of such catastrophic landing (6 crewmembers died, 4 [without co-pilot] survived). All sources I could find mention that survived crewmembers were captured by Finns not far away from Soviet positions they tried to reach on foot, one source mentions that crew defended the crashed bomber near 4 days (but this is much less proved).
Juha wrote:
The book Lapinjärven Historia states that the time of the crash was 0210 hours 11th August 1941
The raid began 20.52 10th August (Moscow time, 2 hours differ from Finnish?) and TB-7 No. 42026 of Panfilov took-off as the last one (~21.30-21.45). The whole planned route was 2700 km and bombers had fuel for 8 hours of flight. As we know Panfilov reached Germany (but I am not sure for 100% that he could reach Berlin because of damages from AA fire), let's assume that the time was ~00.30-00.45. Then the bomber dropped bombs and began its flight back - with damaged oil system and stopped later two engines the cruise speed could be not >300 km/h, but <200 km/h near Baltic Sea at least - and the bomber crashed in Finland (quite closely to home airfield Pushkin, by the way) in 3.5 hours (Moscow time 04.10). Seems to be quite reasonable but a little bit earlier in my opinion.
Juha wrote:
The plane came down with two engines on fire, hit a large rock and broke in two just behind the wings. The plane came down with two engines on fire, hit a large rock and broke in two just behind the wings. Tail part "flew" away some 30 meters from the rest of burning wreck
TB-7 of Panfilov was seriously damaged by AA artillery over Germany, dropped bombs and started return flight. As oil system was damaged the bomber couldn't reach Soviet territory and made emergency landing in Finland. I had no information about engines on fire (one my source mentions only that two diesel engines M-40F stopped in flight because of oil shortage), but this is possible, of course. As for your description of crash - I have no exact info about it but it seems almost impossible for upper turret gunner and two "undercarriage" gunners to survive if the crash happened such way (but as we know they survived!)........
PS. As for the oil system of diesels M-40F - one of the main disadvantages of those diesels was the high oil consumption, so standard oil tanks of TB-7 was not enough for 8-15 hours flights to Germany and back. When Stalin ordered to perform new bombing raid over Berlin in October 1941 by 3 TB-7, the new oil system with additional 400 l oil tank was developed by factory engineers for 22 hours(!), immediately transported by aircraft to TB-7's airfield and installed on those 3 bombers.
Juha wrote:
He also mentioned that the wreck pieces, after had been transported to the Utti airfield, where later transported to Germany
This is interesting and very possible (to investigate the newest Soviet heavy bomber)! But, unfortunately, I couldn't find any info in German sources :(
Juha wrote:
P.S. is the brown clad soldier at the photo a Soviet (crew member)?
I thought at first that he is a Finn in old green/brown uniform mod.1927 (home guard?).....Hmm...Soviets didn't use brown uniform except brown flight coveralls sometimes, and this looks like coverall in my opinion, also field cap of Soviet-style....Very interesting! But if that crewmember is Soviet why is he in such good condition after catastrophic crash? He should wear flight headphones (but, of course, he could have his "ground" field cap with him also). Modern Russian sources mention that all survived crewmembers were captured near front line and if to agree with this I need to assume that photo was taken in several days after crash not just after it, and Finnish soldiers brought captives back to help in investigation of bomber or to make the good propaganda photo, who knows.....
By chance I found one more source - the memoires of famous Soviet test-pilot Stefanovsky (nevertheless, I don't think at the moment that this is 100% correct info about Panfilov's TB-7, but the fates of other TB-7s during that August raid against Berlin were described by Stefanovsky quite correct I need to say) which mentions that crewmembers defended the crashed TB-7 from Finnish home guards several days, using machine-guns/guns, removed from the bomber. That source also mentions that only radio-operator gunner survived after combat, he had no possibility to put a pistol to head (the pistol was empty already), was captured by Finns and employed later by Finnish landowner, working four years until he was returned back to USSR after WWII.

PS. Crewmembers of Pe-8 in winter flight coveralls (1942-1943) -
http://home.arcor.de/sivanov/aviation/t ... b-7-03.jpg
http://www.iremember.ru/pilots/vaulin/k ... uratov.jpg
http://allaces.ru/sssr/foto/ikonsug.jpg

Soviet uniform of Air Force in 1941:
http://www.rkka.ru/uniform/files/vvs1.htm (ordinary dress uniform for officers)
http://www.rkka.ru/uniform/files/vvs7.htm (ordinary dress uniform with raglan for officers)
http://www.rkka.ru/uniform/files/vvs12.htm (summer ordinary dress uniform for officers)
http://www.rkka.ru/uniform/files/vvs16.htm (summer/autumn battle dress for officers)
http://www.rkka.ru/uniform/files/vvs5.htm (summer/autumn flight uniform)
http://www.rkka.ru/uniform/files/vvs15.htm (summer/autumn battle dress for bomber gunners and paratroopers) - those TB-7 gunners should look like similar to this guy (but without infantry DP, of course, that was weapon of some paratroopers).


Regards, BP
Last edited by BIGpanzer on 11 Jan 2007 03:00, edited 19 times in total.

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Harri
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Post by Harri » 09 Jan 2007 09:41

If you mean the guy in BLACK looking (?) overalls inspecting the remnants I think he might be someone from the local fire brigade (because there is no "sam browne belt"). Especially fire brigades used that kind of dark coloured (usually dark blue) or black overalls and "boat caps" [suikka, venelakki]. Chimney-sweepers (who in Finland were personnel of fire brigades) wear very similar looking suits even today:
http://www.nuohoojat.fi/walo1/www_musta ... lainen.jpg
http://www.nuohoojat.fi/walo1/www_musta ... i_1954.jpg
Firemen:
http://asiakas.poutapilvi.fi/pelastusla ... lvytys.jpg
http://asiakas.poutapilvi.fi/pelastusla ... soitto.jpg

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BIGpanzer
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Post by BIGpanzer » 09 Jan 2007 13:00

Thanks, Harri!
Your supposition seems to be correct and reasonable.

PS. Here is some info about aircraft factory No. 124 in Kazan, which produced TB-7/Pe-8. Babel Fish translation.
The plant No. 124 not yet was completely finished building up to the moment of the beginning of the development of TB-7. However, the young engineers and workers of plant was sufficiently prepared to the production of heavy all-metal aircraft as the plant repaired bombers TB-3, participated in production of long-range bombers DB(A), and in development of experimental Tupolev's heavy bombers; for preparation of series production of newest all-metal heavy bombers plant was equipped with powerful machinery, stockpiling and by assembly shops, capable of ensuring series output of TB-7. Plant No.124 was designed taking into account the prospect for the large-scale building of heavy all-metal aircraft plant it were projected and it were constructed for the production of future heavy Tupolev's heavy bombers. The construction of this giant plant in the beginning of the 1930th was insisted by A.N.Tupolev. The equipment of plant was one of the newest and advanced - in addition to native machines a lot of equipment was bought abroad, mainly in USA - newest boring machines, automatic machines for production of standardized details, the special highly productive equipment for procurement facility and much other contemporary equipment for the production of large series of heavy aircraft into the number of existing enterprises of aviation industry. The plant No. 124 was introduced in 1934, when its building yet not was finished. The complexity of starting into the production of such forward-looking machine as TB-7, consisted in many respects in a deficiency in the properly qualified engineering personnel: old experienced personnel were not numerous, there were also not many new experienced Soviet aircraft engineers because Moscow Aviation Institute established in 1930 just began to graduate young aviation specialists, by which still it was necessary to be collected work experience on the large aircraft factories were taken the special measures in 1934-1935. In USA was directed toward the production practice period the group of Soviet engineers from the aircraft plants, which were being headed by Minister Ordzhonikidze, there were also engineers from the plant No. 124.....But during the war plant No.124 produced not the thousands of four-engine heavy bombers as it was planned in 1930th but front bombers Pe-2 mainly

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Juha Tompuri
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Post by Juha Tompuri » 10 Jan 2007 21:27

Harri wrote:If you mean the guy in BLACK looking (?) overalls inspecting the remnants I think he might be someone from the local fire brigade (because there is no "sam browne belt"). Especially fire brigades used that kind of dark coloured (usually dark blue) or black overalls and "boat caps" [suikka, venelakki]. Chimney-sweepers (who in Finland were personnel of fire brigades) wear very similar looking suits even today:
http://www.nuohoojat.fi/walo1/www_musta ... lainen.jpg
http://www.nuohoojat.fi/walo1/www_musta ... i_1954.jpg
Firemen:
http://asiakas.poutapilvi.fi/pelastusla ... lvytys.jpg
http://asiakas.poutapilvi.fi/pelastusla ... soitto.jpg
At that (brownish) photo, at my eyes, the guy seems to wear dark brown coveralls. In the Lapinjärven historia book, the tone of the same photo is more bluish - and so are the coveralls of the "guy".
Few notes more: the coverall seems to be a quite thick one (not some thin cotton one) and the "curved" side cap could be a Soviet one (pilotka)

Regards, Juha

P.S. To be honest, the links you posted, were not very revealing.

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Juha Tompuri
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Post by Juha Tompuri » 10 Jan 2007 22:22

BIGpanzer wrote:Thanks for the info, Juha!
You are welcome
Juha wrote: As I have earlier posted, it has mentions that it got hit from Soviet AAA over Estonia before Berlin
BP wrote:As I have earlier posted this is a mistake
By so far I haven't seen any sources to back up your posts.

BP wrote:
Juha wrote:The book also mentions that before the crash the pilot died and the co-pilot baled out.
The survivors were captured by local civil guard
About co-pilot I agree as his body was not found in TB-7 after crash and he was not captured by Finns together with survived crewmembers (he was captured alone in another place),
According to the magazine Mobilisti 6/1989 the co-pilot was was taken POW at Ruotsinpyhtää (Strömfors)

Image
http://www.genealogia.fi/historia/mini.php?srk=459

BP wrote:why did pilot (senior lieutenant Panfilov) die before the crash not during/after the crash?
Perhaps not just the plane got hits from the AAA ?
BP wrote: All sources I could find mention that survived crewmembers were captured by Finns not far away from Soviet positions they tried to reach on foot, one source mentions that crew defended the crashed bomber near 4 days (but this is much less proved).
BP wrote:By chance I found one more source - the memoires of famous Soviet test-pilot Stefanovsky (nevertheless, I don't think at the moment that this is 100% correct info about Panfilov's TB-7, but the fates of other TB-7s during that August raid against Berlin were described by Stefanovsky quite correct I need to say) which mentions that crewmembers defended the crashed TB-7 from Finnish home guards several days, using machine-guns/guns, removed from the bomber. That source also mentions that only radio-operator gunner survived after combat, he had no possibility to put a pistol to head (the pistol was empty already), was captured by Finns and employed later by Finnish landowner, working four years until he was returned back to USSR after WWII.
The crew was captured the same day, AFAIK at Lapinjärvi, and I haven't read of any resistance from the crew side when taken to POW.
BTW, my sources are based on the POW interrogation reports and eye-witness statements...where are your sources based on?


BP wrote:The raid began 20.52 10th August (Moscow time, 2 hours differ from Finnish?) and TB-7 No. 42026 of Panfilov took-off as the last one (~21.30-21.45). The whole planned route was 2700 km and bombers had fuel for 8 hours of flight. As we know Panfilov reached Germany (but I am not sure for 100% that he could reach Berlin because of damages from AA fire), let's assume that the time was ~00.30-00.45. Then the bomber dropped bombs and began its flight back - with damaged oil system and stopped later two engines the cruise speed could be not >300 km/h, but <200 km/h near Baltic Sea at least - and the bomber crashed in Finland (quite closely to home airfield Pushkin, by the way) in 3.5 hours (Moscow time 04.10). Seems to be quite reasonable but a little bit earlier in my opinion.
Do you have any sources to back up the
-timetable
-route lenght
-fuel amount
BP wrote: it seems almost impossible for upper turret gunner and two "undercarriage" gunners to survive if the crash happened such way (but as we know they survived!)......
. Miracles are claimed to have happened before:
BP earlier, at page 5 wrote: 29. No. 42056 – serial TB-7.
Engines: 4xM-40F diesels (1250-1500 hp)
1st pilot – Nemet (test pilot of Kazan air factory No 124, killed in action), 2nd pilot – Sumtsov (killed in action).
The bomber was lost 13.11.1941 during the factory 5-hours test flight with new diesels before departure to the front – second engine caught fire (because of disconnection of engine connecting rod as was found later) and bomber burnt. 5 crewmembers bailed out, 4 were killed, the 10th crewmember (factory military representative Grigorenko) had a narrow escape – he couldn’t bail out because of strong fire inside the bomber, lied down in tail section and rolled up into canvas covers of engines – he survived without any damages after exploded bomber crash from 5000 m altitude!

BP wrote: Modern Russian sources mention that all survived crewmembers were captured near front line and if to agree with this I need to assume that photo was taken in several days after crash not just after it
The phote was taken by a Finnish civilian? (later military photographer) (living nearby) Carl-Gustav Rosenqvist with his Leica IIIF camera (50mm lens) to an Agfa color negative film.
(sources Mobilisti 6/89 and Lapinjärven Historia)
BP wrote:Finnish soldiers brought captives back to help in investigation of bomber or to make the good propaganda photo, who knows.....
IF the "guy" is one of the crew, we really missed the opportunity, as AFAIK his identity hasn't been mentioned anywhere(?) before.
BP wrote:PS. Crewmembers of Pe-8 in winter flight coveralls (1942-1943) -
http://home.arcor.de/sivanov/aviation/t ... b-7-03.jpg
http://www.iremember.ru/pilots/vaulin/k ... uratov.jpg
http://allaces.ru/sssr/foto/ikonsug.jpg

Soviet uniform of Air Force in 1941:
http://www.rkka.ru/uniform/files/vvs1.htm (ordinary dress uniform for officers)
http://www.rkka.ru/uniform/files/vvs7.htm (ordinary dress uniform with raglan for officers)
http://www.rkka.ru/uniform/files/vvs12.htm (summer ordinary dress uniform for officers)
http://www.rkka.ru/uniform/files/vvs16.htm (summer/autumn battle dress for officers)
http://www.rkka.ru/uniform/files/vvs5.htm (summer/autumn flight uniform)
http://www.rkka.ru/uniform/files/vvs15.htm (summer/autumn battle dress for bomber gunners and paratroopers) - those TB-7 gunners should look like similar to this guy (but without infantry DP, of course, that was weapon of some paratroopers).
thanks for the links

Regards, Juha

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BIGpanzer
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Post by BIGpanzer » 10 Jan 2007 22:45

Hmm...We can only suppose here. In my opinion, Hurri is right, and that was the Finnish guy (probably, local fireman indeed).
I. The only "ambivalent" thing on the photo is field cap, really looks quite similar with Soviet ones. BUT: Hurri proved that Finns wore very similar field caps also - http://asiakas.poutapilvi.fi/pelastusla ... lvytys.jpg
Also I need to note that Soviet staff of Air Force wore dark-blue field caps (and, of course, they should wore flight headphones during the missions).
As for coverall - in my opinion it is of dark brown colour indeed. Soviet pilots and other crewmembers used blue coveralls in 1941 mainly (more seldom - black coveralls, and much more seldom - brown coveralls). Also the model of that coverall looked differ in some details from Soviet in my opinion - it is very fitted, Soviets used more "baggy" design.

II. Also if that TB-7 crashed so hard (6 crewmembers were killed during the catastrophe) it seems for me quite strange that guy looks so healthy (of course, if we assume that he is Soviet). Juha, you mentioned that the photo was taken the same day crash happened (11.08.1941), but all my sources mention that four Soviet crewmembers (without 2nd pilot, who bailed out) were captured by Finns far away from the crash place, near the Soviet line already, so there is big disagreement here, if we assume that the guy is Soviet, of course (if he is Finn, no problem at all - all indo are in full agreement). IF to believe to two sources which describe the strong combat between crewmembers and Finnish soldiers for several days after crash - again, it contradict with the info that the photo was taken the same day with crash data, and with the fact that guy on the photo looks so healthy and voluntary.

Regards, BP

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Post by Juha Tompuri » 10 Jan 2007 23:12

BIGpanzer wrote:Hmm...We can only suppose here.
True.
BP wrote: The only "ambivalent" thing on the photo is field cap, really looks quite similar with Soviet ones. BUT: Hurri proved that Finns wore very similar field caps also - http://asiakas.poutapilvi.fi/pelastusla ... lvytys.jpg
At my eyes, none of the Finn caps there were as "curved" as the one at the wreck site.
BP wrote:Also I need to note that Soviet staff of Air Force wore dark-blue field caps (and, of course, they should wore flight headphones during the missions).
...maybe the crew thought that their mission was over...
BP wrote:As for coverall - in my opinion it is of dark brown colour indeed. Soviet pilots and other crewmembers used blue coveralls in 1941 mainly (more seldom - black coveralls, and much more seldom - brown coveralls). Also the model of that coverall looked differ in some details from Soviet in my opinion - it is very fitted, Soviets used more "baggy" design.
Here a not so baggy coveralls (at right) http://www.bellabs.ru/51/Photos/Sivolapov-1.html
BP wrote: Also if that TB-7 crashed so hard (6 crewmembers were killed during the catastrophe) it seems for me quite strange that guy looks so healthy (of course, if we assume that he is Soviet). Juha, you mentioned that the photo was taken the same day crash happened (11.08.1941), but all my sources mention that four Soviet crewmembers (without 2nd pilot, who bailed out) were captured by Finns far away from the crash place, near the Soviet line already, so there is big disagreement here, if we assume that the guy is Soviet, of course (if he is Finn, no problem at all - all indo are in full agreement). IF to believe to two sources which describe the strong combat between crewmembers and Finnish soldiers for several days after crash - again, it contradict with the info that the photo was taken the same day with crash data, and with the fact that guy on the photo looks so healthy and voluntary.
Your sources,,,

Regards, Juha

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BIGpanzer
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Post by BIGpanzer » 10 Jan 2007 23:46

Hi, Juha!
Juha wrote:
By so far I haven't seen any sources to back up your posts.
You just didn't analyze so huge amount of sources about TB-7 as I did :?
1. As for the damage of TB-7 of Panfilov by German AA artillery and damage of TB-7 of Tyagunin by Soviet AA artillery on the way back - all DETAILED source about that raid (there are a lot in Internet, at least) mention this. You can find also several sources that mention the damage of Panfilov's TB-7 from Soviet and Finnish AA artillery, but this are, very probably (especially, after comparison of all sources I know), not truth. As for damage of Tyagunin's bomber by Soviet AA fire - I am not sure for 100% at the moment that this happened on the way back and Tyagunin made emergency landing on Soviet territory [indeed a lot of source give such info] as several sources mention also that his bomber was knocked down by friendly AA fire on the way to Berlin, 5 men were killed and others bailed out......
One of the most correct (in my opinion) source after all comparisons/checks, nevertheless, it mixed up serial numbers of some bombers, please, note this (by the way, dear Juha, you even couldn't imagine how hard was to find exact serial numbers for all 93 bombers and posted it here :roll: ). Please, translate by youself (from http://www.bestreferat.ru/referat-37064.html):
Ñàìîëåòû óòðîì 10 àâãóñòà ñåëè íà íåçíàêîìûé àýðîäðîì â Ïóøêèíî Íà îçíàêîìëåíèå ñ íîâûì àýðîäðîìîì ó ýêèïàæåé áûëî âñåãî íåñêîëüêî ÷àñîâ. Óæå âå÷åðîì òîãî æå äíÿ áîìáàðäèðîâùèêè íà÷àëè ðàçáåãàòüñÿ ïî ïîëîñå.
Ïðåëåñòè íà÷àëèñü åùå íà ñòàðòå. Åð 2 Ìîëîä÷åãî ñíåñ øàññè î äðåíàæ íà êðàþ àýðîäðîìà (ìîùíîñòè Ì-105 íå õâàòàëî äëÿ âçëåòà ïåðåãðóæåííûõ Åð 2 è ìàøèíû èìåëè ñëèøêîì áîëüøóþ äëèíó ðàçáåãà).
Íà ÒÁ-7 ¹42046 êîìàíäèðà êîðàáëÿ ìàéîðà Åãîðîâà îòêàçàëè äâà ïðàâûõ äèçåëÿ Ì 40Ô ñðàçó ïîñëå îòðûâà ñàìîëåòà îò çåìëè ÒÁ-7 ïîòåðïåë êàòàñòðîôó.
Ïîñëå òàêîãî ëèõîãî íà÷àëà Æèãàðåâ îñòàíîâèë îïåðàöèþ.  ðåçóëüòàòå íà
Áåðëèí óøëè 7 ÒÁ-7 è 3 Åð 2.
Íà ñàìîëåòå ¹42035 ëåéòåíàíòà Â.Ä. Âèäíîãî íàä îêêóïèðîâàííîé òåððèòîðèåé çàãîðåëñÿ ëåâûé âíåøíèé äâèãàòåëü. Ýêèïàæó óäàëîñü ëèêâèäèðîâàòü ïîæàð. Ñàìîëåò ïðîäîëæàë ëåòåòü ê öåëè ñ ïîòåðåé âûñîòû. Çà
370 êì äî Áåðëèíà áûëè ñáðîøåíû áîìáû è ìàøèíà ëåãëà íà îáðàòíûé êóðñ
Âñêîðå îòêàçàë åùå îäèí Ì-40Ô ýêèïàæ ñ òðóäîì äîòÿíóë äî íàøåé òåððèòîðèè è ñîâåðøèë ïîñàäêó íà àýðîäðîìå Îáóõîâå.
ÒÁ-7 ¹42045 (êîìàíäèð êàïèòàí À.Í. Òÿãóíèí) îòáîìáèâøèñü èìåë îòêàç îäíîãî èç äèçåëåé, ÷òî äàâàëî ýêèïàæó âîçìîæíîñòü äîéòè äî äîìà, íî áåäà íå ïðèõîäèò îäíà. Ìàøèíó íàä ïîáåðåæüåì Áàëòèêè âåñüìà óäà÷íî îáñòðåëÿëè ñâîè çåíèò÷èêè äîáèâøèñü ïðÿìîãî ïîïàäàíèÿ â ñàìîëåò, Òÿãóíèí ïîñàäèë ñàìîëåò íà áðþõî ðàçáèâ ìàøèíó. Ñ ïîëíûì ÷óâñòâîì âûïîëíåííîãî äîëãà íà îáðàòíîì ïóòè îòáîìáèâøèéñÿ ïî Áåðëèíó Åð-2 ëåéòåíàíòà Á.À. Êóáûøêî, ñáèë íàø îøàëåâøèé È-16. Ýêèïàæ Åð-2 ñïàññÿ íà ïàðàøþòàõ.
Åð-2 êàïèòàíà À Ã Ñòåïàíîâà ïðîïàë áåç âåñòè.
ÒÁ-7 ¹42055 (êîìàíäèð ìàéîð Ì.Ì. Óãðþìîâ) îòáîìáèëñÿ ïî Áåðëèíó.  õîäå ïîëåòà íåñêîëüêî ðàç íà áîëüøèõ âûñîòàõ îòêàçûâàëè Ì-40Ô, ýêèïàæ âûïîëíèë ïîñàäêó íà ïîñëåäíèõ êàïëÿõ êåðîñèíà â Òîðæêå Ñàìîëåò ÒÁ-7 ¹42046 (êîìàíäèð ñòàðøèé ëåéòåíàíò À.È. Ïàíôèëîâ) íàä òåððèòîðèåé Ãåðìàíèè îáñòðåëÿëè çåíèòêè, ñàìîëåò ïîëó÷èë çíà÷èòåëüíûå ïîâðåæäåíèÿ. Ýêèïàæ ñáðîñèë áîìáû è ëåã íà îáðàòíûé êóðñ. Çàòåì èç çà ìàñëÿíîãî ãîëîäàíèÿ îòêàçàëè äâà Ì-40Ô.
Ìàøèíà ïîøëà íà âûíóæäåííóþ íà òåððèòîðèè Ôèíëÿíäèè ïîñàäêó. Ïðè ïîñàäêå ïÿòü ÷åëîâåê ïîãèáëè îñòàëüíûå ïîøëè ê ëèíèè ôðîíòà – ê ñâîèì. Ó ëèíèè ôðîíòà îíè áûëè âçÿòû â ïëåí ôèííàìè.
Äîìîé â Ïóøêèíî âåðíóëèñü îäèí TÁ-7 ñòàðøåãî ëåéòåíàíòà Ïåïåãåëîâà.
Åùå ïðè íàáîðå âûñîòû ñàìîëåò ¹42036 Âîäîïüÿíîâà áûë àòàêîâàí èñòðåáèòåëÿìè È-16, íî äîøåë äî öåëè è îòáîìáèëñÿ ïî Áåðëèíó. Íàä Ãåðìàíèåé ñàìîëåò ïîïàë ïîä çåíèòíûé îãîíü è áûë ïîâðåæäåí, çàòåì âûïîëíèë âûíóæäåííóþ ïîñàäêó â ðàéîíå Éûõâè íà òåððèòîðèè Ýñòîíèè, óæå îêêóïèðîâàííîé íåìöàìè. Ñàìîëåò áûë ðàçáèò, à ýêèïàæ îñòàëñÿ æèâûì. Äâà äíÿ ïðîáèðàëèñü ê ñâîèì ïî òåððèòîðèè, çàíÿòîé íåìöàìè. Ñïàñëî èõ òî, ÷òî âòîðûì ïèëîòîì â ýêèïàæå áûë ýñòîíåö Ïóñåï, ðîäèâøèéñÿ â Ñèáèðè è õîðîøî çíàâøèé ÿçûê ñâîèõ ïðåäêîâ, ïîýòîìó ñ ìåñòíûì íàñåëåíèåì îáùàëñÿ òîëüêî îí, à îñòàëüíûå ÷ëåíû ýêèïàæà â êîíòàêò ñ ìåñòíûì "äðóæåñòâåííûì" íàñåëåíèåì íå âñòóïàëè Ýòî ïîìîãëî èì âûéòè ê ñâîèì æèâûìè.
ÒÁ-7 ¹42045 êîìàíäèðà êîðàáëÿ êàïèòàíà Òÿãóíèíà óñïåøíî ñáèëè çåíèò÷èêè
Áàëòôëîòà. ÒÁ-7 ¹42016 (êîìàíäèð êîðàáëÿ ìàéîð À.À. Êóðáàí) áîìáèë Áåðëèí, ïîëó÷èë ïîâðåæäåíèÿ îò çåíèòíîãî îãíÿ è áûë ðàçáèò ïðè âûíóæäåííîé ïîñàäêå â ðàéîíå Ðîïøè.
2.
Juha wrote:
Perhaps not just the plane got hits from the AAA ?
I suppose that senior lieutenant Panfilov was killed during crash on Finnish territory, if he was killed by AA fire over Germany it was very hard to control bomber during the long flight to Finland (two pilots sat one after another in TB-7's cabin). But both suppositions is almost impossible to prove as you can understand.

3.
Juha wrote:
The crew was captured the same day, AFAIK at Lapinjärvi, and I haven't read of any resistance from the crew side when taken to POW.
BTW, my sources are based on the POW interrogation reports and eye-witness statements...where are your sources based on?
Do you have these POW interrogation reports?
My sources just mention the fact that survived crewmembers tried to reach Soviet positions and were captured near the Soviet frontline by Finns, which is, of course, is not very sufficient proof. By the way what was the exact distance between crash site and front line in August 1941? You mentioned that bailed 2nd pilot could run several tens(?) of kilometres along the unknown enemy territory before he was captured (so he was captured in several days after crash, right?). The most interesting source from this point of view is the memoires of well-known test-pilot Stefanovsky, who described the heroic combat between Soviet crewmembers and Finnish soldiers in details, based on his talk with survived gunner from that TB-7 after the war [Stefanovsky also described that August raid against Berlin, based on his personal talks with returned pilots, captain Tyagunin, for example, whose bomber was knocked down by Soviet AA artillery by mistake]. So this is also direct eye-witness statement, as you can understand :wink: Of course, it seems to be possible that Soviet gunner tried to describe that catastrophe in such details which could free him from attention of NKVD to some degree (after Finnish POW camp he was "the enemy of nation" according to Stalin's order), but it seems also very possible that Finnish eyewitnesses also tried not to mention the details of strong combat between survived Soviet crewmembers and battalion of Finns if that combat really took place. In my opinion - nobody knows what happened in Lapinjärvi on 11 August, 1941 exactly at the moment.

3.
Juha wrote:
Do you have any sources to back up the
-timetable
-route lenght
-fuel amount
Yes - there are three, one is the memoires of one of TB-7 pilot. If you believe that I cited them correctly, they mention that the first bomber began take-off at 20.52, one of the last bombers (I need to check which one, but not Panfilov's for sure) began take-off at 21.30. Panfilov's TB-7 took-off as the last one.
Route length was approximately 2700 km and bombers had fuel for 8 hours of flight (but one bomber made 10 hours flight because of engines damage).
Here the historical document - telegram from 12 August 1941 of Air Force commander (he was also the Deputy Defense People's Commissar) lieutenant-general P.F. Zhigarev to Air Force HQ:
"... Ñ 21.00 äî 22.00 [timetable - when the raid began, BP] 10 àâãóñòà íà âûïîëíåíèå çàäàíèÿ âûëåòåëè 7 ÒÁ-7 è 3 Åð-2 [7 TB-7 and 3 Yer-2 - BP]. Ïî ïðåäâàðèòåëüíûì äàííûì, ïî öåëè ðàáîòàëè 2 ÒÁ-7 è 2 Åð-2 [2 TB-7 and 2 Yer-2 bombed target (Berlin) according to preliminary data - BP. Note: 5 TB-7 bombed German territory, including Berlin - BP]. Îäèí ÒÁ-7 ñáðîñèë áîìáû äî ïîäõîäà ê öåëè, òàê êàê ñäàë ìîòîð. Âåðíóëèñü è ñåëè â Ïóøêèíå òîëüêî 1 ÒÁ-7 è 1 Åð-2 [1 TB-7 and 1 Yer-2 landed on Pushkino, home airfield - BP]... Î Âîäîïüÿíîâå è Ïàíôèëîâå äàííûõ íåò [no info about Vodopianov and Panfilov yet - BP]... Óñòàíîâèòü, ïî÷åìó èìåëî ìåñòî 3 ñëó÷àÿ îòêàçà ïðàâîé ãðóïïû ìîòîðîâ, ïîêà íå óäàëîñü [no possibility to find the reason of 3 cases of failure of right engines - BP]. Êîìäèâ è øòàá äèâèçèè ðàáîòàþò ïëîõî [divisional commander and divisional HQ worked bad - BP], ñ òàêèì êîìàíäîâàíèåì äèâèçèè è øòàáîì òðóäíî îðãàíèçîâàòü ÷òî-òî ñåðüåçíîå, òàê êàê ñëó÷àéíî íàáðàííûå ëþäè äåéñòâóþò âðàçáðîä è â îäèíî÷êó. Ïðîøó ðàçðåøåíèÿ èñïðàâíûå ÒÁ-7 è Åð-2 ïåðåáðîñèòü îáðàòíî â Êàçàíü [Let me serviceable TB-7 and Yer-2 returned back to Kazan - BP]. Íàçíà÷èòü êîìäèâîì Ãîëîâàíîâà [Let me appoint Golovanov as divisional commander - BP]. Íàçíà÷èòü äðóãîãî íà÷àëüíèêà øòàáà...[Let me appoint another chief of divisional staff]"
4.
Juha wrote:
Miracles are claimed to have happened before:
Yes, that's true. Thanks for detailed reading! :wink: At least one grateful Finnish reader :lol: Factory military representative Grigorenko survived after crash of TB-7 from 5000 m altitude indeed (he lied down in tail section). Similar case happened with tail turret gunner of another Pe-8 when the bomber was knocked down by German fighter (see above, one of my recent posts). I believe to your info about crash details of Panfilov's bomber, but I just wondering how did "undercarriage" and upper turret gunners (for tail turret gunner that was not a problem :) ) survive if the bomber was broken in two parts just behind the wing.

Regards, BP

PS. Do you have the modern photo of the memorial of Soviet crewmembers (with their names) of TB-7 No. 42026 near the crash site? This will be helpful in some details for our investigation.
Last edited by BIGpanzer on 11 Jan 2007 03:12, edited 10 times in total.

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BIGpanzer
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Post by BIGpanzer » 10 Jan 2007 23:59

At my eyes, none of the Finn caps there were as "curved" as the one at the wreck site.
... :roll: At my eyes those Finnish caps were differ, and two guys had "curved" caps almost identical to that on the photo.
Here a not so baggy coveralls (at right) http://www.bellabs.ru/51/Photos/Sivolapov-1.html
Yes, good photo. Just take into consideration that the guy to the right was an officer (naval aviation), not gunner of low sergeant rank. I checked the sources about Soviet flight uniform for crewmembers of bombers - in 1941 they wore not blue as I wrote above but black and gray coveralls mainly (blue coveralls were worn before the war, but some pilots still use them). Soviet summer flight coveralls were made from moleskin or tarpaulin.
Your sources,,,
The same for you... :P
My sources are quite good (memoires of Pe-8 pilots, detailed info about the history of TB-7/Pe-8 and its bombing raids) :wink: Not worser than Finnish automobile magazine or regional historical booklets at least :lol: :lol: To say truth, all our sources are quite interesting :wink: By the way, dear Juha, I am still wondering that you couldn't help me at first because of absence of information (I am really believe that you have a huge amount of info about all aspects of world's military history, especially Finnish) with the proof that one Pe-8 was knocked down in February 1944 over Finland (I've posted above that one Pe-8 was knocked down by German pilot from 3./JG 302 26.02.1944 near Helsinki).

Yes, Juha, and it will be very interesting to read the originals of your sources :wink: - could you, please, scan them.

Regards, BP

PS. I decided to send this photo by e-mail to one person whom I know and who is a good specialist in Soviet and German pilot's uniform of WWII. Let's wait his answer if he find time and possibility to write me the e-mail letter.

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Harri
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Post by Harri » 11 Jan 2007 14:20

I admit the photos which I could find were not especially good because I couldn't find that old photos. The uniforms fire brigades used differed a lot from the nearly military style ones to the style we Finns have seen with "Retuperän WBK", a legendary Finnish funny brass band "founded in 1933" (note the multi-linqual site): http://www.rwbk.fi/html/index.html

But in my third link the firemen of the Helsinki Fire Brigade in the 1930's don't have so curved peakless caps. These are close to an Army cap m/22 which differed from the later models. I still think the man in the dark coloured suit is a local fireman.

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BIGpanzer
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Post by BIGpanzer » 11 Jan 2007 15:04

Thanks, Harri, for the participation in discussion.
I saw the Juha's photo for an hour yesterday and I thought - that was Finn for sure; in 15 min - that was Soviet; in 15 min - no, that was Finn; in 15 min - no, may be Soviet :lol: :lol: :lol: My last opinion - it was Finn as survived Soviets were either captured quite far away from the crash site or wounded in strong combat nearby.....
Also I thought if we discuss all of 93 TB-7/Pe-8 in such way - how long will be this thread?
As for the third link of Harri - the fourth sitting person from the left side had the cap field identical to Soviet-style in my opinion, even with colour edging on the top (the only differences - Finnish round blue-white cap badge instead of Soviet red star cap badge also Finnish cap had side button:) ) "Curved" was not a shape of cap often, but style of its wear......

Soviet Air Force field cap (1935-1941) (staff of Air Force had the dark-blue field caps, officers had colour edging along the top stitch depends on service arm) -
http://rkka.ru/uniform/items/pilotka_vvs1.jpg
http://www.rkka.ru/uniform/files/vvs16.htm (Soviet Air Force field caps)
http://allaces.ru/sssr/foto/iap43_06.jpg (Soviet Air Force fiels caps)

One more important info: I found a mention in memoires that Soviet crews of bombers DB-3F from Baltic Sea aviation, participated in the much more successful and carefully planned raid against Berlin several days earlier (5 August 1941), wore warm winter coveralls as the flight took place on high-altitude mainly (~6-7 km with the temperature -30-35). Very probably, this is true also for TB-7 pilots, and if so - that guy on photo was not a Soviet...........
Last edited by BIGpanzer on 11 Jan 2007 23:52, edited 3 times in total.

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Post by Esa K » 11 Jan 2007 16:33

10 Jan 2007 22:45 BIGpanzer wrote:Hurri is right
A small off topic comment. BIGpanzer, I assume that your spelling Harri as "Hurri" is a typo, but "Hurri" in Finnish is a very degratory word for a person of Fenno-Swedish orgin, and to call a Finn, wich I assume Harri is, makes it even more degratory. Well as said, off topic it is, cause think you just hit the wrong key, but couldnt resist to comment the humoristic touch it gives... :wink:

Best regards

Esa K

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Post by BIGpanzer » 11 Jan 2007 16:57

Ok, Esa K! In reality I always pay a great attention to the correct names of our esteemed forum members. That was just misprint and I believe that Harri excuse me :wink:

PS. As I have a very powerful English-German-Russian-Danish-Swedish-Finnish electronic vocabulary (to use it during sea expeditions) I found the exact meaning of "hurri" on Swedish.
Official explanation:
"Hurri" can mean either a Swedish-speaking Finn or a Swede, and is considered offensive like "nigger". In regions where there are a lot of Swedish speakers, like in Helsinki and Vaasa, this hostility (hurriviha) is more pronounced than in purely Finnish areas. However, the hostility is not active nor violent. It's not really serious.
Or see here: http://www.finlandforum.org/bb/viewtopic.php?p=153727 :)
By the way - "hurri" was the nickname of British Hurricane fighters during WWII also.

PS2. BP for English/German-speaking scientists means Barometerdruck = barometric pressure :lol:

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Post by Mark V » 11 Jan 2007 22:33

It's not really serious.
Hi.

Just to make things clear. We are talking in forum where there is people from all around world. And there is real negative feelings between nationalities in some places. Not between Finns or Swedes for sure. If above post would be left without comment - that may cause bad feelings.

The end of that quote describes it best: Not serious.

There is NO word like "nigger" describing an Swedish or Finnish-Swedish person in Finnish language !! (couple more is needed) !!!!!!

There is word "Hurri" which has humorous and more or less lighthearted meaning.

Swedes i think have an equivalent finnjävla describing Finns.

Excuse of using words like that, even if only as an deny of claimed meaning of word.


Mark V


PS. OK - after that - you boys can continue discussion about TB-7s...

PSS. Why ever i bother, because the meaning of word was not even claimed by Finn person. But someone somewhere would had taken it as an truth.

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