Yugoslav armor till German Invasion 1941

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Dili
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Re: Yugoslav armor till German Invasion 1941

Post by Dili » 02 Apr 2011 02:10

Interesting. Was there any armored car company in Royal Yugoslav Army?

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The Edge
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Re: Yugoslav armor till German Invasion 1941

Post by The Edge » 02 Apr 2011 10:26

There was one platoon of three armored cars (2x Berliet & 1x SPA) in Cavalry School, all WW1-vintage

Dili
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Re: Yugoslav armor till German Invasion 1941

Post by Dili » 07 Apr 2011 08:30

Bojan in Paluba forum had this to say about the armored car:
No, it is local partisan modification captured and used by the German troops in Bosnia 1942.
More, aboout it, in: Dinko Predoevic book on armour in Croatia 1941/43.

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xristar
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Re: Yugoslav armor till German Invasion 1941

Post by xristar » 20 Apr 2011 11:02

Were there any tank battles with the Germans in 1941? Do the Yugoslavs claim the destruction of a German tank by a Yugoslav tank? A German source mentions a Yugoslav counterattack from Valandovo at 19:00 on 7 April against the 2nd Panzer division, which left 10 Yugoslav tanks burning.

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TISO
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Re: Yugoslav armor till German Invasion 1941

Post by TISO » 01 Jun 2011 13:03

In the new book "Borna kola Jugoslovenske vojske 1918-1941" by Bojan B. Dimitrijević on page 37. Exactly the same text is in another new book "Oklopne jedinice na Jugoslavenskom ratištu 1941-1945" by Bojan B. Dimitrijević & Dragan Savić on page 40. Both books are new and are in printed in Serbian (latinic script) language. First is printed in 200 and second in 300 examples in first print.

(translated from Serbian by me):
1.st company of 1.st batalion of armored cars (1. bataljon bornih kola) which was added to the 3.rd army was loaded on railcars in the night 6/7 april and moved into composition of Šumadija division in Strumičko polje. Company was offloaded in the morning of the 7.th of april in the rail station near Udovo in Strumica area and marched to the positions Stralište north of Udanovo-Valandovo road. During this march one tank broke down and was left on the road and others took defensive positions. As it turned out the units of the Šumadija division were already dispersed and company was the only obstacle to the germans on the road to Gevgelija. At that time from the direction of Valandovo LSSAH scoutnig party came which surveyed the company and turned around. As per later statemens from company members company commander didn't want to open fire on the germans and argument broke out between company commander and one of the platoon officers during which german assault aviation attacked after which german tank/infantry attack followed. Company was destroyed becouse with available armament it was almost unusable against superior german forces. Part of the company with 4 tanks retreated toward Greece in composition of Bregalnička division with wish to continue fighting the Germans. These forces crossed Greek border on 8.th of april and continued toward Lerin. After decision was taken to continue moving in direction Vorbeni-Kožani-Greveni-Kalabaka in Lerin remaining 4 Reno tanks were destroyed to ease the movement of the group. After sucessfull geman advances in Greece and capitulation of Jugoslav army this group fell apart.
It seems that it was more or less defensive operation on the side of yugoslav forces. Purely my speculation is that 4 tanks somehow managed to retreat during the fighting either during the lul in the fighting or the somehow broke trough hence "counterattack".
It doesn't say which type of FT-17's were in composition of the company (cannon or MG armed or "old" FT or improved Kergasse or mix of the all). Also worth of note author uses as LSSAH as their opponent not 2.nd panzer division.

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TISO
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Re: Yugoslav armor till German Invasion 1941

Post by TISO » 01 Jun 2011 14:00

Simperator wrote:Hi everyone!

Unknown (to me, at least) armoured car, Yugoslavia 1941:
Plot thickens. Interestingly caption under the photo in the book "Oklopne jedninice na Jugoslovenskom ratištu 1941-1945" says:
Captured ustasha armoured truck in Livno (note by TISO: in Bosnia) in front of mechanical shop of newly formed 8.corps NOVJ november 1943
and source of the photo:
MRN-JUG, inv.Br. 5133, A655/8

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MarkoZ
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Re: Yugoslav armor till German Invasion 1941

Post by MarkoZ » 05 Jun 2011 10:39

Uncle Novica was in Sumadija Division his story was that the Division was the southern toe of Royal Yugoslav Army its job was to link up with the 'Commonwealth Division' however the 'Commonwealth ' Division headed back to Salonika. Uncle Novica was then ordered to blow up a bridge which had been mined with explosives but which was left intact to help form the proposed front.

The German army turned up as Uncle and his Sergeant went onto the bridge, Uncle stated that there were three Yugoslav tanks on the other side facing the Germans, he described these as small French tanks with machine gum armament. Uncle Novica then watched as the German tanks drove up to the Yugoslav tanks and 'Tipped' them over on their sides, the Germans didnt even bother wasting any ammo on them.

Uncle Novica then had no time to get off the bridge as the German tanks entered onto it, he decided to blow the bridge by hot wiring the explosives, his last memory of the encounter was his Sergeant engaging the tanks with an Erma sub machine gun, he was then machine gunned and woke up several days later on a German Hospital train in Budapest.

Uncle Novica was a very intelligent man having been a Solicitor in Yugoslav Government pre 1941 he was spot on with his memory and even descrided the FT 17 tanks to me.

regards

Marko
Last edited by MarkoZ on 05 Jun 2011 19:36, edited 1 time in total.

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xristar
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Re: Yugoslav armor till German Invasion 1941

Post by xristar » 05 Jun 2011 12:25

Interesting stuff.
The German source I have in mind spoke of tanks in front of 2nd Panzer Division as well as 73rd Infantry division. Strumica, Valandovo, Gevgelia were all captured by 2nd Panzer Division. The information about LSSAH is almost certainly wrong.
The Greek sources speak of Yugoslav tanks crossing the border towards Florina, but these, according to Greek source, were turned back into Yugoslavia by their own officers.

From a monograph called "Overwhelming Force, Indecisive Victory: The German Invasion of Yugoslavia, 1941".
Image
This sketch shows the positions of the Yugoslav divisions:
27)Morava division
28)Bregalnica div
29)Sumadja div
30)Vardar div

The "Commonwealth Division" if not a misunderstanding, may have been the british 1st Armoured brigade stationed around Yanitsa on the western bank of Axios (Vardar) river:
Image
It's the green circle roughly in the center of the map

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phylo_roadking
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Re: Yugoslav armor till German Invasion 1941

Post by phylo_roadking » 05 Jun 2011 15:05

The TANKS! site has this to say about Yugoslavian FT17s...
There were a total of 56 units. Eight units were received in 1920 from French troops stationed in Bulgaria. The remainder were purchased in 1930.

Late in the 1930's, Poland sold a number* tanks to Spain, Uruguay, Yugoslavia, and China. It is not known if these FT-17 were obsolete French made units or Polish made. There is some mention of the Polish made CWS-FT-17 being exported. CWS means "Centralne Warsztaty Samochodowe" - Central Car Workshops - and between 1925 to 1927 they manufactured 26 or 27 tanks from French spare parts, and Polish iron plates and other parts. The Polish production model used normal iron instead of steel used in French manufacture. The Poles used the CWS made tanks for training as the armor was inferior for actual combat usage. There were two or three companies (some 30-45 tanks) sold to China.

* Some reports state "about 30", others state 64, still others claim 90. It is believed that Poland, with the agreement of Uruguay, sent some of the tanks to Spain. There were two or three companies (some 30-45 tanks) sold to China, and one (probably only one) company sold secretly to Spain via Uruguay. The tanks sold to China were sold officially.- the tanks sold to "Spain/Uruguay" couldn't be sold officially, because Poland was in so-called "non-intervention committee", which was formed by some European countries and didn't allow military sales to Spain during their civil war. Exactly how many made it to Yugoslavia is unknown.
They also had purchased 9 NC27s, the "stretched" version of the FT, referred to as the "Renault-Kegresse M.28" (and M.27) in the original article referenced....and in April 1940 had taken delivery of some 54 Renault R35s from France. Eight Skoda S-L-Ds...the T32s...were bought for the Cavalry School at Zemun in 1938.
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Franzl Rider
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Re: Yugoslav armor till German Invasion 1941

Post by Franzl Rider » 27 Jul 2011 22:09

If you want to see a real T-32 in color: look on this film (almost to at the end) you can see a T-32 being ferried over a river. Taken in 1940 in color!!!.
The link was mentioned on this thread, but not that it contained a T-32.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=vXaVq_ha ... ded#at=105

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Varadero
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Re: Yugoslav armor till German Invasion 1941

Post by Varadero » 18 Aug 2013 13:14

Number of Yugoslav Renault FT17 and a M28 in Central Serbia collectged by German forces to be send by train to central collection point. From ebay.
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Sid Guttridge
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Re: Yugoslav armor till German Invasion 1941

Post by Sid Guttridge » 18 Aug 2013 17:20

Hi Guys,

Some years ago I looked for a three/four-view line drawing of the Renault-Kegresse M.28, but couldn't find one.

Does anyone know where I might find drawings of this tank?

Many thanks,

Sid.

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Varadero
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Re: Yugoslav armor till German Invasion 1941

Post by Varadero » 12 Oct 2013 19:02

Germans were quick to use the former Yugoslav Renault FT's in the Serbian uprising in late 1941. Here one on a train. from ebay.
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ltcolonel
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Re: Yugoslav armor till German Invasion 1941

Post by ltcolonel » 13 Oct 2013 14:54

German tanks in ex Jugoslavia in 8. septembear 1941.
704 inf. div. - 4 Reno R-35, 8 Reno FT-17
714 inf. div. - 4 Reno R-35, 3 Reno FT-17
717 inf. div. - 4 Reno R-35, 4 Reno FT-17
718 inf. div. - 4 Reno FT-17
Wachregiment I.R. 734 (from 704 inf. div.) had – 2 Reno R-35, 5 Reno FT-17/18
railway wagon with 2 Reno FT for 717 inf. div. for bahnschutz.
Standort Sarajevo 2 tanks Reno FT-17, and Standort Slav. Brod should have received tanks
Arsenal in Kragujevac should have received several tanks Reno FT-17 to protect
In factory Herman Gering Werken in Mladenovac (oround 30 km souht of Belgrade) to repair 8 Reno R-35.
20 tanks Reno FT 17 in Solun (Thessaloniki) for making improvised armored trains.
All tanks were ex Jugoslav.

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Varadero
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Re: Yugoslav armor till German Invasion 1941

Post by Varadero » 13 Jul 2014 12:50

Two pictures of the same Yugoslav Renault-Kegresse M.28 tried out by a German soldier. From ebay.
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