► Photothread: Wehrmacht fuel tankers

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protze
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Post by protze » 17 Jan 2007 11:44

Hi Franzl

I think that the WH bowser is a Tatra 27B. In the image you see a Tatra 27B as a tanker/fire-engine from a firearmy.
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Panzermacher
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Post by Panzermacher » 17 Jan 2007 17:25

Bill Murray wrote: I have also seen, by the way, Luftwaffe dedicated bowsers used to fuel their trucks or so it looked. Strange, because aviation gasoline was quite better than that used for vehicles and hard to obtain.
Bill
The Octane rating of the Luftwaffe's standard aviation fuel was 87 Octane (B4), this was the same Octane as used for all Wehrmacht Vehicles including Panzers.

C3 on the other hand was 96 Octane & this was completly reserved for the Me 109's running the DB601N, DB605AS, DB605D-2 (C3 fuel Only)
introduction of MW50, 50/50 Water/Methanol unit
DB605ASB,DB605DB (only 2 motors produced being able to use both C3 (96) & B4 (87) )
DB605AM, DB606ASM, DB605DM, DB605ASC, DB605DC & DB605L (all MW50-C3 only motors).

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Post by Bill Murray » 17 Jan 2007 17:58

Thank you Panzermacher for the clarification. Aviation is not a field I know much about but I had read from time to time that there were often shortages of av/fuel especially later in the war.
On the subject of vehicle fuel, correct me if I am wrong, but I thought I also read that the Germans were plagued through a good part of the war with fuel of rather less octane than 87, which is pretty good fuel for a car or truck. Perhaps, 87 was the "ideal" or "TOE" fuel but in practice they used whatever they could get their hands on.
Thanks again.
Bill

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Panzermacher
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Post by Panzermacher » 17 Jan 2007 20:10

The shortages you are referring to especially for the Luftwaffe in the later part of the war were a combination of Allied Bombing (Production loss) & as a result of the later Me109's which needed to use the C3 96 Octane, this was critical in getting the Boost Pressure of the Supercharger & therefore Horse Power up, so the fighter's operational ceiling could match or surpass that of the Bombers & escorts, remember by this time German Fighter Home Defence was crafted around the "interceptor role", so even if you had sufficient stocks of B4 87, in most cases you simply could not get the fighter off the ground to use in the "interdictor or interceptor" role, using B4 87 in these aircraft simply resulted in an underpowered pig, much like the post war Junkers J11 Me109 "Mules"

As for Vehicle fuel although the Fuel was 87 Octane throughtout the war, it was the quality of it that suffered, because a large part of the fuel was refined from Lignite Coal Feed Stock in the Fischer-Tropsch & Bergius processes, because of these processes the Fuel was more Benzene than "Petroleum" (from Crude Oil), ideally you want a Petrol with a small percentage of Benzene because of it's "Anti-Knocking" ability & it's Octane Boosting properties, what you don't want is a Benzene fuel with a small percentage of Petrol, it just leads to problems, in low compression motors it predetonates (causing rough idle at all rpm) & simply burns out motors. ( all German Vehicle motors were Low Compression types).

I'm by no means an expert on German Fuels, Productions & distributions, however I know enough that I can make what I think are some "sound judgments" based on observations.

One being that German Vehicle Motors, Gearboxes & Final Transmissions seemed to be Engineered around the available fuel type ( 87 Octane), whereas the Allies had the Luxury of actually developing Fuels to meet the Engine Requirements.

By wars end even the British Spitfire was running the highly exotic Fuel of 150 Octane, something German Engineers like Kurt Tank could only cry over, but much to the German Engineers' credit they were able to gain the phenomenal rate of 2000 PS out of the late war DB605ASC & DB605DC using just C3 96, ever larger Superchargers & the MW50 system

It would also be fair to presume that of the available Crude Oil coming out of the Romanian Oil Fields, a good portion of it would have gone into Aircraft Fuel with Vehicle motors being relegated to Benzene, even though both were 87 octane, as explained above you can see why German Aircraft Motors performed much better & also why there was some, not a lot but some C3 96 to play with.

To be fair, to your early remarks it is possible to run motors of that era on 78 & 82 Octane, which was quite common in the late 20's & 30's however I have not read or heard of reference to any German war machine or vehicle using an Octane rating this low.

Lastly, there simply was a general fuel shortage due to the Allied Bombing campaign, of (If I remember correctly) the 15 or so Synthetic Fuel & Oil facilities in operation all of them only ran at an estimated 9% production rate for the last 12 months of the war, still despite all of these problems Germany still managed to produce on average 36 Million Liters of Fuel (9.5 Milllion Gallons) per Year, that was a lot back then especially concidering the feed stock & the processes involved, by todays standard, it's petty when compared to the US's daily Consumption of 1.45 Billion Liters! (384 Million Gallons)

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ChrisMAg2
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Post by ChrisMAg2 » 18 Jan 2007 05:32

Panzermacher wrote: ...
To be fair, to your early remarks it is possible to run motors of that era on 78 & 82 Octane, which was quite common in the late 20's & 30's however I have not read or heard of reference to any German war machine or vehicle using an Octane rating this low.
...
For example:
The Riedel starting engine (for BMW 003 and Jumo 004 jet engines) required only A2, 80 Octane fuel as well as the small engines of the biplane trainers.
The fuel of the V-1 was 80 octane based too.
Regards
Christian M. Aguilar

protze
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Post by protze » 18 Jan 2007 16:22

On the back of the WH bowser on page 1 of this topic you can read the code J6A. Does that means a certain type of fuel or an aircraft?
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Post by Bill Murray » 19 Jan 2007 18:00

I thank all of you for the excellent "primer" on vehicle and aviation fuels. Very interesting and good to know.

To return to the earlier question, I am now seeing photos of WH bowsers and found some others in my own data files that I had forgotten. Do we know if they were intended for armoured formations, vehicle tanking in general or both? I would imagine that after the Russian campaign began,. with the tens of thousands of impressed/captured/confiscated vehicles added to the fleet that this may be why we see fuel in jerry cans and barrels being transported by all manner of ordinary trucks.
Edit: Sorry for the WM instead of WH which I just fixed.
Bill
Last edited by Bill Murray on 19 Jan 2007 22:50, edited 1 time in total.

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Panzermacher
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Post by Panzermacher » 19 Jan 2007 22:01

Sorry to break in Bill.
Protze, regarding the J6A image, honestly I don't know, there was a J2 Aviation fuel used but this was a late war fuel used in the Me262 (actually the 262 used 3 types of fuel B4 (87), J2 (brown Coal derivitive) & Diesel, the J2 & Diesel were the preferred fuels as B4 was prone to excessive consumption
Chris, you realise the Riedel was a 2 Cylinder 2 Stroke boxer motor?

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Sander D
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Post by Sander D » 19 Jan 2007 23:44

Protze wrote :
think that the WH bowser is a Tatra 27B. In the image you see a Tatra 27B as a tanker/fire-engine from a firearmy.
I do believe it's a tatra truck but not a 27B,see picture.
Take a close look at these 3 vehicles in the second row,the other vehicle are Tatra T85 tankers.
I did a search for the type of it,but with no result.

Image


Christoph Awender wrote :
The largest percentage of fuel was not transported in tankers but in normal trucks with canisters.
When i see al those barrels there would be a lot of need ,of hand pumps.
It would take some time and muscle power to refuel al those lkw ,pkw .....


Some barrel pictures , form expired E-bay sales

From a train tanker in a lkw tanker.

Image


Banhof ,barrel loading on trucks

Image


Soldier use muscle power to fill up a stug

Image


Bill wrote :
After the Russian campaign began,. with the tens of thousands of impressed/captured/confiscated vehicles added to the fleet that this may be why we see fuel in jerry cans and barrels being transported by all manner of ordinary trucks.
It's easer to stock barrels then lkw tankers, see picture of a Benzinlager somewhere ......east!!.

Image

Regards

Sander

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ChrisMAg2
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Post by ChrisMAg2 » 20 Jan 2007 05:41

Panzermacher wrote:Sorry to break in Bill.
Protze, regarding the J6A image, honestly I don't know, there was a J2 Aviation fuel used but this was a late war fuel used in the Me262 (actually the 262 used 3 types of fuel B4 (87), J2 (brown Coal derivitive) & Diesel, the J2 & Diesel were the preferred fuels as B4 was prone to excessive consumption
Chris, you realise the Riedel was a 2 Cylinder 2 Stroke boxer motor?
Correction,
Jumo 004, could only use J2 or Flugdiesel 100. It was the BMW 003 that could also run on B4 in the beginning, but was then set to not use B4 anymore.

And, yes, i'm aware the Riedel engine is a twostroke engine. It used A2 plus 3-5% addition of oil for lubrication.

Regards
Christian M. Aguilar

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Tanker of the Wehrmacht

Post by SIS 5 » 21 Jan 2007 19:41

Hello,

I´ve found a picture of a Wehrmacht tanker, I assume. But I cannot ID the truck, because it´s shown from the back. Maybe it´s one of the captured French tankers. It could be a Matford F 917. (source: Moskau, Rshew, Orel, Minsk by W. Haupt).

Regards

Bert
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protze
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Post by protze » 22 Jan 2007 08:58

Or it is a Tatra 85.
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Valtoro
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Post by Valtoro » 22 Jan 2007 17:45

It's easer to stock barrels then lkw tankers, see picture of a Benzinlager somewhere ......east!!.

Image

Regards

Sander
[/quote]

That must be from before the partisans became active....looks like a nightmare to control!

/valtoro.

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Panzermacher
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Post by Panzermacher » 22 Jan 2007 20:15

ChrisMAg2 wrote:
Correction,
Jumo 004, could only use J2 or Flugdiesel 100. It was the BMW 003 that could also run on B4 in the beginning, but was then set to not use B4 anymore.

And, yes, i'm aware the Riedel engine is a twostroke engine. It used A2 plus 3-5% addition of oil for lubrication.

Regards
Christian M. Aguilar
I really don't know how to respond to that except to say that Hans Fey, states in his interrogation after turning his Me 262 over to US Authorities that B4 was used.

Strictly speaking the Riedel "starter motor" was only used to crank the turbine to a nominal 1800 RPM at which point B4 (from an approx 14.5L auxiliary tank per engine) was injected into the combustion chamber which fired the engine, taking the RPM up to 3000 whereupon the fuel pumps for the main tanks were switched over.

If Hans Fey is correct it may have been the scarcity of the other 2 types at times that forced the use of B4 or it was perhaps used for training purposes in order to conserve J2 & the DK-1 diesel fuel oil.
http://www.zenoswarbirdvideos.com/Image ... EBRIEF.pdf

These are just 2 of the hundreds of documents I have regarding German fuel & fuel production from US, UK & German sources, I can convert them to adobe acrobat files & upload them if desired.

Archive Document (512 6501-3) "Fuel supplies for the Messerschmitt 262 and the Arado 234. Economic advisory branch. March 16, 1945" states "Almost any low grade fuel can be used in a Jet Unit, Although possibly at some expense to engine life, any of the active Oil Plants could be drawn upon to ensure continuity of supply".

The A2 used in the Riedel engine was 60 Octane, according to Archive Document (512 6501-1) A1.2G Air Ministry (UK) 11th Dec 1944 War Cabinet Technical Sub-Committee on Axis Oil (Enemy Oils & Fuels Committee) Sample Number 409 (which I believe is a sample of A2) at 60 Octane is believed to be that used for powering V1's, which makes sense to use a comparative cheap fuel in an expendable one shot weapon.

A couple of things to note, of the mass of UK, US & German Documents regarding German war time production methods & fuels I have, so far I've only examined around 3% of the US & UK Documents with the German Documents yet to be translated, although I have had a cursory glance at them.

Another thing to be aware of is that in both the US & UK labs almost none of the captured German fuels use the German prefix or nomenclature & are often only referred to by the Gov/Labs Sample number, & only an approximation of the fuel type can be guessed by it’s color, Octane rating & general composition.

It's also interesting to note that the US & UK fuel samples analyzed can't always be relied upon for accuracy as quite often the captured fuel stocks were "stale" with the octane ratings varying by as much as 5 by the time they were analyzed by the labs in the US & UK, due to transit times??

protze
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Post by protze » 24 Jan 2007 10:40

Here you see a table with the fuels the WH and WL used in 1944. Sorry it's in Durch, but, I hope, you can understand what the content is.
Rood = red; Blauw = blue; Groen = green; geen = no; Uitgave = edition
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