► Photothread: Bloody Hansa Lloyd/Borgwards

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Sturm78
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Re: ► Photothread: Bloody Hansa Lloyd/Borgwards

Post by Sturm78 » 04 Dec 2016 15:36

Hi all,

Borgward 1 ton truck (B1400) from Ebay (I think):

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Sturm78
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Re: ► Photothread: Bloody Hansa Lloyd/Borgwards

Post by Sturm78 » 02 Feb 2017 20:54

Nobody for my last image ??

Well, here another image from Ebay: I think a Hansa Lloyd Merkur I, II or III

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SIS 5
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Re: ► Photothread: Bloody Hansa Lloyd/Borgwards

Post by SIS 5 » 03 Feb 2017 19:38

Hi Sturm 78,

to the Borgward 1 tonner. I´m not sure, but it could also be a Hansa-Lloyd type "Express" 1-tonner.
The pic from Yesterday: for me it is not the type "Merkur" 4-tonner, but the type "Europa III" 3-tonner.

Best regards

Bert

Sturm78
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Re: ► Photothread: Bloody Hansa Lloyd/Borgwards

Post by Sturm78 » 06 Feb 2017 17:23

Bert wrote
The pic from Yesterday: for me it is not the type "Merkur" 4-tonner, but the type "Europa III" 3-tonner.
Ummhhh... I think the cab in general and particularly the windscreen match with Merkur model.... :?

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Re: ► Photothread: Bloody Hansa Lloyd/Borgwards

Post by SIS 5 » 06 Feb 2017 21:09

Hi Sturm 78,

a long time I was thinking like You that these trucks are "Merkurs". But then I studied the pics of these trucks and I could find pics with data on the door on the left side. And I compared these with the data of Hansa-Lloyd in the "Autotypenbuch".
Europa III: curb weight (Leergewicht): 3430 kg, payload (Nutzlast): 3000 kg or 25 persons of the military version; curb weight (Leergewicht): 2860 kg, payload (Nutzlast): 3000 kg of the civilian version.
Merkur III: from the Merkur I have no data of the military version; curb weight (Leergewicht): 4175 kg, payload (Nutzlast): 4000 kg of the civilian version
So I came to the conclusion, that most trucks of Hansa-Lloyd delivered to the Wehrmacht were 3-tonners, b.t.w. the favourite type of the Wehrmacht at all. I hope You can follow what I mean.

Best regards

Bert
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peeved
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Re: ► Photothread: Bloody Hansa Lloyd/Borgwards

Post by peeved » 06 Feb 2017 22:48

Hansa Lloyd/Borgward are a bloody pain.

Holger thinks this Hansa with similar door data probably is a 1929...32 Merkur (L III) with original 3 ton payload.
http://kfzderwehrmacht.de/Homepage_engl ... kur_i.html

Image

Markus

Sturm78
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Re: ► Photothread: Bloody Hansa Lloyd/Borgwards

Post by Sturm78 » 07 Feb 2017 17:50

Bert wrote
a long time I was thinking like You that these trucks are "Merkurs". But then I studied the pics of these trucks and I could find pics with data on the door on the left side. And I compared these with the data of Hansa-Lloyd in the "Autotypenbuch".
Europa III: curb weight (Leergewicht): 3430 kg, payload (Nutzlast): 3000 kg or 25 persons of the military version; curb weight (Leergewicht): 2860 kg, payload (Nutzlast): 3000 kg of the civilian version.
Merkur III: from the Merkur I have no data of the military version; curb weight (Leergewicht): 4175 kg, payload (Nutzlast): 4000 kg of the civilian version
So I came to the conclusion, that most trucks of Hansa-Lloyd delivered to the Wehrmacht were 3-tonners, b.t.w. the favourite type of the Wehrmacht at all. I hope You can follow what I mean.
Markus wrote
Hansa Lloyd/Borgward are a bloody pain.

Holger thinks this Hansa with similar door data probably is a 1929...32 Merkur (L III) with original 3 ton payload.

It seems a complicated issue..... :roll:

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Re: ► Photothread: Bloody Hansa Lloyd/Borgwards

Post by SIS 5 » 08 Feb 2017 17:23

Hi Markus,

thank You for Your reply. I think Holger made here a mistake. In the book "Taschenbuch Deutscher LKW-Bau 1918 - 1945" by Wolfgang H. Gebhardt is the information, that the type "Merkur III" from 1929 was a 2-tonner with a weight 2360 kg. So it must be a later model.
Let´s have a look on the civilian versions. They are really very similar. Here two pics of them with their data out of the "Autotypenbuch. Typentafeln der Deutschen Kraftfahrzeugindustrie 1935":
Overall dimensions of these two types: Europa III: 6135 (7135) x 2050 x 2105 mm; Merkur III: 6870 (7570) x 2250 x 2195 mm;
wheel base: Europa III: 4100 (4500) mm; Merkur III: 4400 (4900) mm;
weight of the chassis Europa III: 2080 (2150) kg; Merkur III: 3250 (3540) kg
weight of the superstructure: Europa III: 605 (710) kg; Merkur III: 925 kg
load-bearing capacity of the chassis: Europa III: 3800 kg; Merkur III: 5000 (5200) kg
tyre size: Europa III: 7,00 - 20 ; Merkur III: 8,25 - 20
One possible distinguishing mark could be the bumper: the "Merkur" has a straight bumper, the bumper of the "Europa" is not straight, but has two kinks.
At least a good pic, I think, of the military version of the Hansa-Lloyd truck. After all I would say, that it is the type "Europa III" on the pic of Sturm 78, and not the type "Merkur".

Best regards

Bert
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peeved
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Re: ► Photothread: Bloody Hansa Lloyd/Borgwards

Post by peeved » 08 Feb 2017 22:34

Hi Bert,

I wonder if Gebhardt isn't one more victim of the Hansa Lloyd/Borgward curse. On pp. 181...182 of my '89 edition of Band 2a he writes that in 1931 the three-tonner Merkur appeared with opposed-piston Junkers diesel, and yet his data table doesn't mention either a petrol or diesel version of the original 3-ton Merkur. Gebhardt mentions a three-axle Europa IV on p. 181; Wonder how that looked like.

BTW wouldn't the eight bolt wheels of your open cab HL make it a Merkur series or Europa IV?

Regards,
Markus

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Re: ► Photothread: Bloody Hansa Lloyd/Borgwards

Post by SIS 5 » 09 Feb 2017 20:23

Hi Markus,

thank You very much for Your vey interesting reply. You are right, probably Gebhardt and also me are victims of the Hans-Lloyd - Borgward mystery.
Thanks, that You corrected me. The open cab HL could already be the type Europa IV. But also the type Europa III had eight bolt wheels, when it was used by the Wehrmacht oder RAD.
Here the attempt to put both types together. I think the upper one is the Europa III, the lower one the Merkur III.

Regards

Bert
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SIS 5
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Re: ► Photothread: Bloody Hansa Lloyd/Borgwards

Post by SIS 5 » 09 Feb 2017 20:38

Hi,

here another attempt. I think like before, that the upper one is the Europa III, the lower one the Merkur III. There are different bumpers and distance bars.

Regards

Bert
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peeved
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Re: ► Photothread: Bloody Hansa Lloyd/Borgwards

Post by peeved » 09 Feb 2017 22:20

Hi Bert,

At http://kfzderwehrmacht.de/Homepage_engl ... r_iii.html Holger suggests the windshield lower edge as an ID point for Merkur. That would make
Merkur series:

Image
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and Europa series:

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Then again bloody likely there is a bloody way to tell bloody HLBs apart (disregarding custom and open WH cabs) from any viewpoint.

Regards,
Markus

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peeved
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Re: ► Photothread: Bloody Hansa Lloyd/Borgwards

Post by peeved » 09 Feb 2017 22:21

However just for kicks here're some windshield interpretations;

Merkur series:

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Europa series (with my luck probably including Bremens):

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But as to be expected there were late Merkur factory cabs with unMerkurlike windshield edges

like this dumper
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and maybe this Sattelschlepper
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plus this lorry booted by Russians
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and Europa with Merkury cab (Or unknown Merkur version with six bolt wheels. Note the full-length running boards; Otherwise a Merkur feature in my windshield shuffle. Also note how the stowage box bottoms are appreciably above the running board like with the Merkurs in my "analysis" whereas the forwardmost box seems to rest on the running board level when windshield says Europa.) Finally the Merkurs in this cavalcade appear as a rule to have wider cabs than Europas which likely influenced the windshield design.

Image

Markus

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Re: ► Photothread: Bloody Hansa Lloyd/Borgwards

Post by SIS 5 » 10 Feb 2017 22:48

Hi Markus,

thank You very, very much for posting Your collection of these Hansa-Lloyd trucks. Maybe with these pics we can bring more light into the shadow. I think we are still in a dilemma, because Hansa-Lloyd produced 31 different types of trucks in the years from 1933 to 1938. Interesting, that the Wehrmacht preferred the types with petrol engines, but the RAD the Diesel ones.
You will hear or better read from me.

Best regards

Bert

Sturm78
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Re: ► Photothread: Bloody Hansa Lloyd/Borgwards

Post by Sturm78 » 12 Feb 2017 19:45

Hi all,

Merkur ??

Image from Ebay
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