► Photothread: Bloody Hansa Lloyd/Borgwards

A section dedicated to photo threads on panzer and other Axis vehicles.
User avatar
peeved
Member
Posts: 8817
Joined: 01 Jul 2007 07:15
Location: Finland

Re: ► Photothread: Bloody Hansa Lloyd/Borgwards

Post by peeved » 12 Feb 2017 20:30

Hi Sturm,

IMO the cab looks unusually wide in relation to the running board for a Merkur and that despite the board having a flare some centimetres from the front wing. Also the lorry

Image
looks quite similar to Bert's open cab pic; Especially note flare to the running board and stowage box arrangement.

Image

At this stage I'd say Europa IV Wehrmacht special.

Dazed & Confused
Markus

User avatar
peeved
Member
Posts: 8817
Joined: 01 Jul 2007 07:15
Location: Finland

Re: ► Photothread: Bloody Hansa Lloyd/Borgwards

Post by peeved » 13 Feb 2017 15:51

OTOH I feel these WH cabs are attached to Merkurs since their broader chassis and axle tracks were more likely to accomodate a wide cab within normal running boards.

Image
Image
Image

Markus
You do not have the required permissions to view the files attached to this post.

SIS 5
Member
Posts: 4604
Joined: 22 Nov 2006 17:27
Location: Germany

Re: ► Photothread: Bloody Hansa Lloyd/Borgwards

Post by SIS 5 » 13 Feb 2017 20:29

Hi Markus,

thanks for Your interesting thoughts and pics. But I´m not yet convinced. Here my attempt to show the two types (Europa and Merkur) with open cabs. The only distinguish marks are for me the other bumper, the other distance bars, the other position of the headlights on the bumper and a different distance between the step and the door.

Best regards

Bert
You do not have the required permissions to view the files attached to this post.

Sturm78
Member
Posts: 15543
Joined: 02 Oct 2008 17:18
Location: Spain

Re: ► Photothread: Bloody Hansa Lloyd/Borgwards

Post by Sturm78 » 13 Feb 2017 20:38

Markus wrote
OTOH I feel these WH cabs are attached to Merkurs since their broader chassis and axle tracks were more likely to accomodate a wide cab within normal running boards.
So, a Merkur truck, is it not??
According to your images, Markus, it can be said that the Merkur model had a split and curved windshield and a wider cab with a small grid in the front under the windshield....
while Europe model seems to have a tighter cab and a one-piece windshield.....

Sturm78

SIS 5
Member
Posts: 4604
Joined: 22 Nov 2006 17:27
Location: Germany

Re: ► Photothread: Bloody Hansa Lloyd/Borgwards

Post by SIS 5 » 13 Feb 2017 20:53

Hi,

here an interesting text about our Hansa-Llody truck types (source: http://www.borgward.nl/docs-uk/hansa-lloyd.htm):

Merkur:
The type "LIII" also called "Merkur" was built in 1929 en 1930, it was powered by an 4 cylinder petrol engine with 55 and later 60 bhp and had a carrying capacity of 3.000 kg.
In 1934 the "Merkur III" was introduced, which had a 6 cylinder diesel engine of 75 bhp (in 1936 this becomes 85 bhp) and a carrying capacity of 4.000 kg.
In 1936 the last Merkur is built, the "Merkur IV" with a 6 cylinder diesel engine of 90 bhp and a carrying capacity of 5.000 kg.
In 1937 the name is changed in "Hansa 4,5 - 5 Tonner" and the power is raised up to 100 bhp..

Roland:
The type "Roland" is built between 1930 and 1932, it was powered by a 6 cylinder petrol engine of 80 bhp. The carrying capacity was 3.500 kg.

Bremen:
Of the "Bremen" several models were made. In 1930 the "SL 1,5" or "Bremen I" powered by a 6 cylinder petrol engine with 60 bhp and the "Bremen II" powered by a 4 cylinder petrol engine with 40 bhp were introduced. They both had a carrying capacity of 1.500 kg. In 1932 followed by the "Bremen III", now powered by a 4 cylinder petrol engine with 45 bhp and a carrying capacity of 2.000 kg. A year later the first diesel version is introduced, it is the "Bremen III D" powered by a 4 cylinder diesel engine with 50 bhp.
In 1936 this series of models was closed by the "Bremen IV", it could by supplied with a 6 cylinder petrol engine with 90 bhp or a diesel engine with 55 bhp These models were made in different lengths and had a carrying capacity of 2.000 up to 2.500 kg.

Europa:
A bigger type was the "Europa", in 1930 it begins with the "SL 2" or the "Europa I". It was powered by a 6 cylinder petrol engine with 65 bhp and had a capacity of 2.000 kg and the "Europa II" powered by a 6 cylinder petrol engine with 65 bhp and a capacity of 2.500 kg. In 1932 the carrying capacity is raised up to 3.000 kg and the truck now is called "Europa III". In 1933 this model also can be powered by a 6 cylinder diesel engine with 75 bhp.
In 1935 the "Europa IV" follows, powered by a 6 cylinder petrol engine with 70 bhp or the almost same diesel engine from the former model. the carrying capacity stays 3.000 kg.
In 1937 the last model, the "Europa V" is introduced, it was powered by a 6 cylinder diesel engine with 82 bhp and the capacity was 3.500 up to 4.000 kg. In 1938 the name "Europa" is left and it becomes the Hansa "3,5 - 4 Tonner".

Best regards

Bert

SIS 5
Member
Posts: 4604
Joined: 22 Nov 2006 17:27
Location: Germany

Re: ► Photothread: Bloody Hansa Lloyd/Borgwards

Post by SIS 5 » 13 Feb 2017 20:55

Hi,

and here an interesting outline of the years of production (source: https://de.wikipedia.org/wiki/Hansa-Lloyd)

Best regards

Bert
You do not have the required permissions to view the files attached to this post.

User avatar
peeved
Member
Posts: 8817
Joined: 01 Jul 2007 07:15
Location: Finland

Re: ► Photothread: Bloody Hansa Lloyd/Borgwards

Post by peeved » 13 Feb 2017 20:58

Hi Bert,

I'm inclined to call your Europa a Merkur I or II. Note how well the general form of Holger's Merkur I pic corresponds to your Europa.

Image
Image

Regards,
Markus

User avatar
peeved
Member
Posts: 8817
Joined: 01 Jul 2007 07:15
Location: Finland

Re: ► Photothread: Bloody Hansa Lloyd/Borgwards

Post by peeved » 13 Feb 2017 21:23

Sturm78 wrote:
Markus wrote
OTOH I feel these WH cabs are attached to Merkurs since their broader chassis and axle tracks were more likely to accomodate a wide cab within normal running boards.
So, a Merkur truck, is it not??
Ummm...which truck?
Sturm78 wrote:According to your images, Markus, it can be said that the Merkur model had a split and curved windshield
If you mean the shallow curve in the outer lower corner then in most factory cabs that seems to be the case; although from 1935 or so there were Merkurs with slanted one piece windscreen factory cabs.
Sturm78 wrote:and a wider cab with a small grid in the front under the windshield....
while Europe model seems to have a tighter cab and a one-piece windshield.....
In most factory cabs from Europa III on, yes.

Markus

User avatar
Maxschnauzer
Financial supporter
Posts: 4395
Joined: 24 Jan 2014 07:36
Location: Philippines

Re: ► Photothread: Bloody Hansa Lloyd/Borgwards

Post by Maxschnauzer » 14 Feb 2017 00:16

SIS 5 wrote:Hi,

and here an interesting outline of the years of production (source: https://de.wikipedia.org/wiki/Hansa-Lloyd)

Best regards

Bert
This extensive variety of different types must have been a Provisioner's nightmare. I think of Borgwards somewhat similar to the way I view Bruckner's symphonies: Fairly impressive in their totality but bloody tedious individually. :wink:
Cheers,
Max

SIS 5
Member
Posts: 4604
Joined: 22 Nov 2006 17:27
Location: Germany

Re: ► Photothread: Bloody Hansa Lloyd/Borgwards

Post by SIS 5 » 14 Feb 2017 10:18

Hi Markus, hi Max,

today I have to admit, that I was wrong with my theory according to the type "Europa" - "Merkur". I have a list of trucks used in the Spanish civil war by the "Legion Condor". The only truck of Hansa-Lloyd in this list is the type "Merkur III". And I could find a pic of the "Merkur III" of the "Legion Condor" (license plate "LC"). Here it is. But I don´t agree with Holger, that on his pic is a "Merkur I". I think it is also the type "Merkur III, because only in 1935 the Wehrmacht ordered trucks from Hansa-Lloyd. Thank You very much for this interesting discussion.

Best regards

Bert
You do not have the required permissions to view the files attached to this post.

User avatar
peeved
Member
Posts: 8817
Joined: 01 Jul 2007 07:15
Location: Finland

Re: ► Photothread: Bloody Hansa Lloyd/Borgwards

Post by peeved » 14 Feb 2017 13:50

Hi Bert,

IMO one should consider the possibility of Hansa-Lloyd purchases by Reichswehr up to 1935. According to "Die Motorisierung der Deutschen Reichswehr" by Walter J. Spielberger the RW's documents for purchases of commercial lorry types are incomplete due to the results of war. In his list Spielberger cites e.g. Europa II and Merkur III and since Spielberger admits his account is far from complete other HL types appear possible.

Regards,
Markus

User avatar
peeved
Member
Posts: 8817
Joined: 01 Jul 2007 07:15
Location: Finland

Re: ► Photothread: Bloody Hansa Lloyd/Borgwards

Post by peeved » 14 Feb 2017 13:57

Maxschnauzer wrote:This extensive variety of different types must have been a Provisioner's nightmare. I think of Borgwards somewhat similar to the way I view Bruckner's symphonies: Fairly impressive in their totality but bloody tedious individually. :wink:
Hi Max,

I tend to liken Hansa-Lloyd/Borgwards to modern art. There often are multiple interpretations of HLB pics and it's up to the viewer to try and make some sense out of the bloody mess.

Markus

Sturm78
Member
Posts: 15543
Joined: 02 Oct 2008 17:18
Location: Spain

Re: ► Photothread: Bloody Hansa Lloyd/Borgwards

Post by Sturm78 » 14 Feb 2017 16:22

Markus wrote
Ummm...which truck?
The truck of my image posted on 12 Feb 2017....

Sturm78

User avatar
peeved
Member
Posts: 8817
Joined: 01 Jul 2007 07:15
Location: Finland

Re: ► Photothread: Bloody Hansa Lloyd/Borgwards

Post by peeved » 14 Feb 2017 17:28

Hi Sturm,

I still think the cab of that lorry looks wide for the chassis, probably making the type an Europa IV or so unlike the WH-cabbers in my first post of the 13th. Also note how in Bert's pic in my last post from the 12th one can't see the exhaust muffler where expected from a Merkur III or IV; AFAIK those used Humboldt-Deutz F 6 M 313 & 316 engines with exhaust manifold on the left while Borgward sixes in Europas exhausted to the right.

Markus

User avatar
peeved
Member
Posts: 8817
Joined: 01 Jul 2007 07:15
Location: Finland

Re: ► Photothread: Bloody Hansa Lloyd/Borgwards

Post by peeved » 14 Feb 2017 22:20

You do not have the required permissions to view the files attached to this post.

Return to “Panzer & other vehicles - Photo threads”