► Photothread: Umbauwagen

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peeved
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Re: Umbauwagen

Post by peeved » 10 Sep 2014 22:31

Piotr Mikołajski wrote:
peeved wrote:Guess that makes the use of or mounting of defensive weapons allowable. But what would those be?
Well, I looked to the Red Cross and Geneva Convention, not to the books about modern combat medicine. Both sources mention personnel weapons, not AA armament.
Re. arming medical vehicles there seems to be varying opinions on what is allowed, e.g.
According to the Report on US Practice, it is the opinio juris of the United States that
[medical] personnel and medical vehicles may be armed, but in international armed conflicts, they may use their weapons only in self-defence and in defence of their patients against marauders and against those enemy forces that do not respect their protected status.
https://www.icrc.org/customary-ihl/eng/ ... 5_sectionb
Piotr Mikołajski wrote:TBH I don't remember dedicated German medical vehicle with armament.
Removing mounted armament (if any) appears to have been the custom although the Panzerjäger I in the last photo retains its AT gun. From exp. eBay.de. Auction N:os embedded in pic names.

Markus
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peeved
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Re: Umbauwagen

Post by peeved » 11 Sep 2014 16:24

Post-war Umbau; Demobbed to a voluntary fire brigade. From exp. eBay.de auction N:o 310821273885.

Markus
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Piotr Mikołajski
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Re: Umbauwagen

Post by Piotr Mikołajski » 13 Sep 2014 04:19

peeved wrote:Re. arming medical vehicles there seems to be varying opinions on what is allowed, e.g.
According to the Report on US Practice, it is the opinio juris of the United States that
[medical] personnel and medical vehicles may be armed, but in international armed conflicts, they may use their weapons only in self-defence and in defence of their patients against marauders and against those enemy forces that do not respect their protected status.
https://www.icrc.org/customary-ihl/eng/ ... 5_sectionb
Excellent quote, let's find source: "Report on US Practice, 1997". Well, written over 50 years after WWII and talks about practice in modern US Army. I don't know how about you but from my point of view this is pretty much useless for disscussion about WWII German vehicles.
peeved wrote:
Piotr Mikołajski wrote:TBH I don't remember dedicated German medical vehicle with armament.
Removing mounted armament (if any) appears to have been the custom although the Panzerjäger I in the last photo retains its AT gun. From exp. eBay.de. Auction N:os embedded in pic names.
I talked about dedicated vehicles, not improvised ones.
Best regards,
Piotr Mikołajski

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peeved
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Re: Umbauwagen

Post by peeved » 13 Sep 2014 09:47

Piotr Mikołajski wrote: peeved wrote:Re. arming medical vehicles there seems to be varying opinions on what is allowed, e.g.

According to the Report on US Practice, it is the opinio juris of the United States that
[medical] personnel and medical vehicles may be armed, but in international armed conflicts, they may use their weapons only in self-defence and in defence of their patients against marauders and against those enemy forces that do not respect their protected status.

https://www.icrc.org/customary-ihl/eng/ ... 5_sectionb


Excellent quote, let's find source: "Report on US Practice, 1997". Well, written over 50 years after WWII and talks about practice in modern US Army. I don't know how about you but from my point of view this is pretty much useless for disscussion about WWII German vehicles.
Impossible for me to say since I don't know what legal basis the US government has for its interpretation. Perhaps you could cite some generally accepted period source that specifically forbids self-defence weapons mounted on Red Cross vehicles as opposed to e.g. using Red Cross vehicles to transport weapons to combatants which AFAIK clearly jeopardises the sign protection.
Piotr Mikołajski wrote: peeved wrote:

Piotr Mikołajski wrote:TBH I don't remember dedicated German medical vehicle with armament.


Removing mounted armament (if any) appears to have been the custom although the Panzerjäger I in the last photo retains its AT gun. From exp. eBay.de. Auction N:os embedded in pic names.



I talked about dedicated vehicles, not improvised ones.
Sure but the same rules should apply any vehicles under Red Cross protection; Shouldn't they.

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kerryboo
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Re: Umbauwagen

Post by kerryboo » 13 Sep 2014 18:03

A lightened Opel Super Six as makeshift kubel.
Kerry.
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SIS 5
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Re: Umbauwagen

Post by SIS 5 » 29 Sep 2014 18:49

Hi,

here a pic of an Umbauwagen, a Chevrolet conveted into a light truck. I´m not sure, could it be the model 1938? (source of the pic: an expired ebay auction).

Regards

Bert
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Bill Murray
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Re: Umbauwagen

Post by Bill Murray » 29 Sep 2014 23:02

Hi Bert:

Yes, a 1938 Chevrolet Master Deluxe converted into a sort of pickup truck.
Photo below of a restored sedan of that type.
Bill
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kerryboo
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Re: Umbauwagen

Post by kerryboo » 30 Oct 2014 12:47

I think this is another version of the 1938 Chevrolet, serving as an ambulance.
Kerry.
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Bill Murray
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Re: Umbauwagen

Post by Bill Murray » 31 Oct 2014 20:08

Time for some more.
Chevrolet 1939
Ford 1935
Ford 1938
Last two are old ebay shots.
Bill
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Re: Umbauwagen

Post by Bill Murray » 31 Oct 2014 20:17

A few more.
Chevrolet 1939 in the background. Caption is wrong, it is styled like a similar Swiss vehicle.
Chevrolet 1937 Norway.
Chevrolet 1938 Norway.

Bill
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Bill Murray
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Re: Umbauwagen

Post by Bill Murray » 31 Oct 2014 20:22

And a few more.

All German Fords of the 1937 style.
Ex old ebay shots.
Bill
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SIS 5
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Re: Umbauwagen

Post by SIS 5 » 13 Nov 2014 17:20

Hi,

here a pic of an interesting "Umbauwagen", here a captured British Leyland "Retriever", with an improvised German closed cab (source of the cab: an expired ebay auction).

Regards

Bert
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kerryboo
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Re: Umbauwagen

Post by kerryboo » 28 Nov 2014 21:00

I am not sure whether this is a captured military vehicle or an extensive conversion, but, anyway, it is, I believe, a 1940 Chevrolet kubelwagen,
Kerry.
img628_new.jpg
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Bill Murray
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Re: Umbauwagen

Post by Bill Murray » 28 Nov 2014 23:48

Hi Kerry:

It is in my opinion an umbau, not a "commissioned military vehicle".
That being said, I wish someone had a good source on the German practice of building small series of such umbau cars.

Over the years, I have collected up lots of photos of umbaus that were pretty obviously one offs or at best the same vehicle rebuilt in very small numbers. On the other hand, Horch in particular, followed by Opel and perhaps Ford vehicles seem to have been built to a fairly rigid specification in rather large numbers. Seemingly in some sort of factory or field factory setting, not a "torch and hammer" job as many others seem to be.

As regards your Chevrolet, I have seen photos of 1937/1938/1939/1940 models that all look to be built to a fairly common specification. Not many, but more than one. Sadly, I did not save all of them or they are sitting in my files with anonymous identifications due to being unsuccessfully moved from one computer to another.

This may have been shown before, but here is a 1938 model that looks very similar to yours.

Bill
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ilfil
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Re: Umbauwagen

Post by ilfil » 01 Dec 2014 08:14

Hi Bert, and thanks for the interesting Retriever pic!
SIS 5 wrote: (source of the cab: an expired ebay auction).
This was a laugh, I have to admit :lol: I imagine the Germans buying cabs for their captured vehicles from Ebay! :lol: No offense, I hope.
But seriously, at first I've thought the source of this cab was some FWD SU COE. No way. Quite similar but not the same definitely, apparently a scratchbuild, but fine one!
Thanks again.
Cheers!
"...and on the 8th day He made truck so that man, made on 7th day, had shelter when woman threw him out for the night."

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