► Photothread: French Equipment in German Service

[David Lehmann]

Many thanks Paul,

Yes it sounds really interesting to me ... I am amazed by the number of old French tanks and armored cars still in use in middle/late war (remember also the 21.PzD in 1944 in Normandy).
About the number of '75' I am doubtful, the French Army had only 4500 of them on duty in June 1940 ... perhaps did they found many others unused ones ?

Best Regards,

David

[Paul Lakowski]

Many thanks Paul,

Yes it sounds really interesting to me ... I am amazed by the number of old French tanks and armored cars still in use in middle/late war (remember also the 21.PzD in 1944 in Normandy).
About the number of '75' I am doubtful, the French Army had only 4500 of them on duty in June 1940 ... perhaps did they found many others unused ones ?

Best Regards,

David

No problem David. What people should also bear in mind is that in addition to the numbers of french tanks used as is , there were also a number of spgun conversions from other french tanks by mid war that have to be added to the ~ 700 figure. Chamberline Doyle and Jentz report....

170 x Pak 40 converted Lorraine tractors out of 315 captured.
106 x converted Lorraine tractors with 15cm & 10-.5cm how.
72 x armored Lorraine tractors with 10.5cm how or Pak 40
38 x FCM-36 & S-35 tanks converted to SP Pak40 or SP 10.5cm how
174 x R-35 converted to PzJgd 1 [4.7cm]


All these were done 42-43.

[David Lehmann]

Yes,

But the R-35 PzJäger was available already in 1941.

Lorraine self-propelled gun with 10.5cm howitzer or Pak40 were used in StuG Abt like the 200. StuG Abt of the 21. PzD but also in Marder units for the Pak40 version.

+ 16 B2 chassis with 10,5 cm howitzers
+ 1 Lorraine SP arty with a 122mm (r)
+ 16 Somua MCG S307 converted to 7.5cm Pak40 (Sf)
+ other halftracks/tanks converted to SP AT gun, SP mortar(s), SP flamethrower, SP Flak or SP rocket-launchers etc.
+ halftracks converted to APCs
...

In fact the French captured/converted equipments played an important role. And before 1943 and the arrival of the Hummel and Wespe most of the SP artillery in PzD was constituted with French modified vehicles.

cheers,

David

[David Lehmann]

I just told you something wrong ... beside the Lorraine conversions, there were also numerous Hotchkiss conversions and for example the 200. StuG Ab from 21. PzD in Normandy was equiped with 16 7,5cm Pak40 auf Howitzer and 24 10,5cm leFH16 auf Howitzer (not Lorraine conversions).

David

[David Lehmann]

In Yugoslavia, the divisions SS Prinz Eugen, SS Handschar and SS Skanderbeg had each one or two H-35/38/39 and R35 squadrons, mostly in their Aufklärung Abteilung beside motorcycle and horse mounted men.
The SS Kama division used later the French tanks of the SS Handschar divisions in Fall 1944.
There where also H-39s in the 200. Panzer Abteilung 200 during the Belgrad battle in October 1944.
According to Otto Kumm ("Vorwärts Prinz Eugen !") and completed by german (Koblenz and BA-MA) and yugoslavian archives, the 105. SS-StuG Abt from captain Paletta attacked on 11th October 1944 a T34 battalion progressing with the 36th Tito partisans's division, in front of Obrenovac (south-west of Belgrad). The dozen StuGs from SS Prinz Eugen are supported by French H-39 and R-35 tanks from 200. Panzer Abteilung and SS Aufklärung Abt 21 from Kamfgruppe Skanderbeg. They destroyed 13 T34/85 and about 100 other misc vehicles.
This counter-attack was launched to cover the retreat of elements from Armee-Gruppen E and F accros the Save. Then the Renault and Hotchkiss tanks protected the retreat of the StuGs. By the end of the day the H-39 and R-35 are hardly attacked by IL-2 Stumoviks.

The Hotchkiss and Renault French tanks were really liked in the Balkans because of their small size which allowed them to operate in the mountain areas, on the small trails and "roads" there and to provide close fire support to the engaged infantry units. There was also a huge stockpile of spare parts in the Renault and Hotchkiss factories in France. In the SS Aufklärung Abt 21 there were original R-35 and H-39, but in the 200. Panzer Abteilung it is possible that there were also 4.7cm and 5cm Pak38 auf PzKpfw 35R (f) as well as 7,5cm Pak40 auf PzKpfw 39H (f) "Marder I (SdKfz 135)".

David

[Alternative Scenario]

There was also a huge stockpile of spare parts in the Renault and Hotchkiss factories in France.

You mentioned the captured weapons - did the Germans continue production of the Lorraine and other armoured vehicles in factories in Occupied France after June 1940?

I have always been curious - as to how effectively the Germans ran armaments factories in occupied countries. Did they continue to manufacture the same weapons at the same levels of production or did they starve these factories of resources?

[Paul Lakowski]

There was also a huge stockpile of spare parts in the Renault and Hotchkiss factories in France.

You mentioned the captured weapons - did the Germans continue production of the Lorraine and other armoured vehicles in factories in Occupied France after June 1940?

I have always been curious - as to how effectively the Germans ran armaments factories in occupied countries. Did they continue to manufacture the same weapons at the same levels of production or did they starve these factories of resources?

I gather the Germans used Russians to man a tank factory in Kiew and maintained captured T-34s and KVs.

[David Lehmann]

Well, for the French industries I would have to consult their archives or a PhD about Hotchkiss written by Danièle Rousselier but I have them not, so no details.

Hotchkiss produced still spare parts and several chassis for the Germans from 1940 to 1944.
For Renault, most of the archives have disappeared during the allied bombings of 1944.
Gnôme Rhône for example in Gennevilliers (nowadays SNECMA) produced German engines for planes like Heinkel 129 and other factories also produced German parts.
For Panhard all the archives had also been lost in allied bombings.
Some of the Berliet archives seems to be still available and conserved in Lille but I have no info about them.
etc. with many other industries ...

David

[David Lehmann]

In François Vauvilliers's book "l'automobile sous l'uniforme" it is indicated that about 28000 Renault trucks had been produced for the Germans during the occupation (AHS 2t, AHN 3,5t and AHR 5t models).

I don't own the following books but they are probably interesting about "Beute" vehicles :

French:
http://www.schifferbooks.com/military/g ... 02655.html

General :
http://www.schifferbooks.com/military/g ... 01802.html

http://www.schifferbooks.com/military/g ... 05263.html

and also this one :
"Beute-Kraftfahrzeuge und Panzer der deutschen Wehrmacht"
by Spielberger, MOTORBUCH

Russian :
http://www.schifferbooks.com/military/g ... 02011.html

US and UK :
http://www.schifferbooks.com/military/g ... 0524X.html

Does anyone have several of these books ? Are they good ones ?

David

[David Lehmann]

The Renault factories were administrated by Prinz Von Urach (that will later be the press attaché of Daimler-Benz after WW2).

Panhard-Levassor produced German panzers track parts.

Peugeot from March 1941 to September 1944 fabricated 15300 DMA trucks for the Germans and spare parts for the Kübelwagen, the factory is controlled by KDFWagen (future Volkswagen).

SIMCA produced personnal cars for the German/Italian Army
1941/1942: 5983 Simca 5 (aka Fiat 500 Topolino) and 3960 Simca 8 (aka Fiat 1100)
1943: 122 Simca 8 and 19 Simca 5
1944: 180 Simca 8 and 23 Simca 5

David

[MadderCat]

@Panzermeyer
I own these book in the german version from Waffenarsenal
there are a quiet good source for pictures and general infos
about the vehicle type and numbers used, sometimes special infos
about certain vehicles
I would say that they are worth buying

MadderCat

[David Lehmann]

Thanks for this answer Maddercat

Regards,

David

[David Lehmann]

A French Simca 5 used by the Wehrmacht :



David

[David Lehmann]

A Laffly truck converted to an APC by the Germans ... equiped with a MG but no markings ... perhaps just a test vehicle :



David

[David Lehmann]

A German captured Laffly light truck :

- SOURCE SITE HAS BEEN CLOSED -

And a Laffly W15 TCC (SP tank destroyer armed with a 47mm SA37 L53 gun and a FM 24/29 AAMG, only 100 vehicles produced and 70 used by the French army, outstanding results for example in Abbeville but not enough to impact the war) captured by the Germans :

- SOURCE SITE HAS BEEN CLOSED -

David