PSW 204(f) with KwK 5.0cm (Southern France during Anvil/Dragoon)
Laffly W15 and PSW 204(f) FU (Southern France during Anvil/Dragoon)
► Photothread: French Equipment in German Service
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David Lehmann
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Paul Lakowski
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David Lehmann
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Hello Paul,
Well I never used it and I never saw an AAR about such a vehicle. I don't even know how much Panhard P178 were converted by the Kommando Bauer and fitted with the 5.0cm gun. In fact it's an open "turret" vehicle with the gun in front, like in several German PSWs. I guess it wasn't worse than other vehicles of that kind. This one has been photographied in Southern France, in the area of the 11.PzD but I don't know to which unit it belongs.
David
Well I never used it and I never saw an AAR about such a vehicle. I don't even know how much Panhard P178 were converted by the Kommando Bauer and fitted with the 5.0cm gun. In fact it's an open "turret" vehicle with the gun in front, like in several German PSWs. I guess it wasn't worse than other vehicles of that kind. This one has been photographied in Southern France, in the area of the 11.PzD but I don't know to which unit it belongs.
David
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David Lehmann
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In fact, the 4,7cm Pak181(f) auf Geschützwagen Lorraine is not at all a German conversion but a French one.
Realized during end May/beginning June, a Lorraine 37L armed with a 47mm L/53 Mle1937 AT gun. The Laffly W15 TCC was also a tank destroyer armed with the same gun but 70 pieces were in that case produced and delivered to the combat units.
In 1943, the Free French in this same spirit made prototypes of the Lorraine 37L armed with a 17Pdr and a Renault UE armed with a 6 Pdr AT gun.
David
Realized during end May/beginning June, a Lorraine 37L armed with a 47mm L/53 Mle1937 AT gun. The Laffly W15 TCC was also a tank destroyer armed with the same gun but 70 pieces were in that case produced and delivered to the combat units.
In 1943, the Free French in this same spirit made prototypes of the Lorraine 37L armed with a 17Pdr and a Renault UE armed with a 6 Pdr AT gun.
David
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Paul Lakowski
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David Lehmann
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Hello Paul,
LAFFLY W15 TCC (CC = chasseur de chars = tank destroyer)
The Laffly W15 TCC has been produced in the May-June panic. A prototype has been tested during the Phoney war, and was fully armored. The early May engagements revealed the need for a self propelled AT gun, and W15 chassis were requisitionned to receive 47mm L/53 Mle37 AT guns. Only the first vehicles were totally armored, for the others, armored plates were put to protect the front of the vehicle (driver, roof etc.) and two small other plates were added to the conventionnal shield of the AT gun on the rear. 70 were operationnal by the end of May 1940 and saw action. They were issued to 14 anti-tank batteries (BACA = batterie d'anti-chars automoteurs) of 5 vehicles. They give outstanding results in Abbeville and on the Loire defenses but had little impact on the whole war. They were indeed a little bit high but proved to be very succesful, lightly armored but fast and adapted to hit and run tactics.
weight : 4.96t
crew : 6 men
maximum armor : 12-15mm
maximum speed : 48 km/h
armament : a 47mm SA37 L/53 AT gun with 30 rounds and a FM 24/29 AAMG.
There were other small tank destroyers like the AMR-35 ZT-3, very low profile but only armed with a 25mm AT gun whereas the French 47mm AT gun was the best one on the Western battlefield in 1940 (if not counted the 8.8cm Flak in Pak use obviously).
Do not mix the Laffly W15 TCC with the Laffly S20 TL.
The Laffly S20TL is a softskin personnal carrier, developped during 1934-1937, also known as "VDP" for "voiture de Dragons Portes", Dragons Portes's car. Each Laffly S20TL was equiped with two AA mounts which could possibly be fitted on each aft corner, on each side, and on the center the first row of rear seats and the rest of the hull. The devices could accomodate either a FM 24/29 or a 8 mm Hotchkiss MG. However for combat, both LMGs were supposed to be used by the squad (only during transport would the LMGs be used in an AA role. 630 S20TL vehicles had been delivered in 1940 to the French army for a total of 1175 ordered. There were also other variants of the S20 : a fuel tank version (39 vehicles), a command truck (69 vehicles) and a tank destroyer version of the S20 TL carrying a 25mm AT gun (40 vehicles) used for example in the 4th DCR. The characteristics of the Laffly S20 TL are :
weight : 3.9t
crew : 1 driver + 10 men for the carrier (6 men for the tank destroyer)
maximum speed : 65 km/h
armament : none for the carrier except an AAMG during travel, a 25mm SA-L Mle34 L/72 AT gun for the tank destroyer version.
This tank destroyer version was only used to support the motorized infantry, it was not really used alone in AT tank tactics whereas the Laffly W15 TCC was used by independant AT units.
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Other question, would someone have a listing of the Waffen-SS units issued with the Panhard P-178 (=PSW-204(f)) for Barbarossa in 1941 ?
Does someone know if the Panhard P-178 was present in the Totenkopf, LSSAH, Das Reich or Wiking during 1943 ?
Regards,
David
LAFFLY W15 TCC (CC = chasseur de chars = tank destroyer)
The Laffly W15 TCC has been produced in the May-June panic. A prototype has been tested during the Phoney war, and was fully armored. The early May engagements revealed the need for a self propelled AT gun, and W15 chassis were requisitionned to receive 47mm L/53 Mle37 AT guns. Only the first vehicles were totally armored, for the others, armored plates were put to protect the front of the vehicle (driver, roof etc.) and two small other plates were added to the conventionnal shield of the AT gun on the rear. 70 were operationnal by the end of May 1940 and saw action. They were issued to 14 anti-tank batteries (BACA = batterie d'anti-chars automoteurs) of 5 vehicles. They give outstanding results in Abbeville and on the Loire defenses but had little impact on the whole war. They were indeed a little bit high but proved to be very succesful, lightly armored but fast and adapted to hit and run tactics.
weight : 4.96t
crew : 6 men
maximum armor : 12-15mm
maximum speed : 48 km/h
armament : a 47mm SA37 L/53 AT gun with 30 rounds and a FM 24/29 AAMG.
There were other small tank destroyers like the AMR-35 ZT-3, very low profile but only armed with a 25mm AT gun whereas the French 47mm AT gun was the best one on the Western battlefield in 1940 (if not counted the 8.8cm Flak in Pak use obviously).
Do not mix the Laffly W15 TCC with the Laffly S20 TL.
The Laffly S20TL is a softskin personnal carrier, developped during 1934-1937, also known as "VDP" for "voiture de Dragons Portes", Dragons Portes's car. Each Laffly S20TL was equiped with two AA mounts which could possibly be fitted on each aft corner, on each side, and on the center the first row of rear seats and the rest of the hull. The devices could accomodate either a FM 24/29 or a 8 mm Hotchkiss MG. However for combat, both LMGs were supposed to be used by the squad (only during transport would the LMGs be used in an AA role. 630 S20TL vehicles had been delivered in 1940 to the French army for a total of 1175 ordered. There were also other variants of the S20 : a fuel tank version (39 vehicles), a command truck (69 vehicles) and a tank destroyer version of the S20 TL carrying a 25mm AT gun (40 vehicles) used for example in the 4th DCR. The characteristics of the Laffly S20 TL are :
weight : 3.9t
crew : 1 driver + 10 men for the carrier (6 men for the tank destroyer)
maximum speed : 65 km/h
armament : none for the carrier except an AAMG during travel, a 25mm SA-L Mle34 L/72 AT gun for the tank destroyer version.
This tank destroyer version was only used to support the motorized infantry, it was not really used alone in AT tank tactics whereas the Laffly W15 TCC was used by independant AT units.
---------
Other question, would someone have a listing of the Waffen-SS units issued with the Panhard P-178 (=PSW-204(f)) for Barbarossa in 1941 ?
Does someone know if the Panhard P-178 was present in the Totenkopf, LSSAH, Das Reich or Wiking during 1943 ?
Regards,
David
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Paul Lakowski
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