► Soft Skinned Vehicles

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Maxschnauzer
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Re: ► Soft Skinned Vehicles

Post by Maxschnauzer » 10 Jul 2020 04:24

spannermann wrote:
09 Jul 2020 13:58
Hi,
Yes the rear view is a Stoewer R12 RW kfz 15/1 mFernSpWgn.

But quantities are mistaken, the Stoewer M12 in all the above photos is from what was the first production batch known as Gruppe I, they are in the chassis number group Fg Nr 27301 to 27870, which gives 569 chassis numbers, but there no guarentee that all 569 chassis number were actually made into R12 Kubelwagen, its just the batch of numbers that they were allocated.
Only one is know to exist today and that is Fg Nr 27500 from 1935. So from that chassis number it looks fairly certain that something close to the 569 number is possible.

However there were a second batch of R12, known as Gruppe II of 1936 and onwards, running from chassis number Fg Nr 28001 to 28900, of this group chassis numbers 28127, 28136 and 28 574 are known to exist. Consequently at least 574 of this second group were built, but whether they reached 900 is unknown.
So, 596 + 574 gives at least 1170 + manufactured.

In discussions with the Stoewer archivist 1n the 1980's. who gave Oswald (and others) the Gruppe I chassis numbers, he was unaware of the existance of other chassis numbers for Gruppe II, when given those other numbers he found them in the archives, but had presumed they were for civilian Stoewers, never built due to the war occuring.

I believe today two of those four chassis number have been restored and two scrapped.

cheers PAUL
Hello Paul,
Your expertise on this subject is amazing and very much appreciated.
BTW is this one of the restored chassis you were referring to?
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Cheers,
Max

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Re: ► Soft Skinned Vehicles

Post by spannermann » 10 Jul 2020 15:58

Hi Bert and Max, forgive me, its a Lecture !!!

Just to clarify the reason for the data I have and saying what I have said, is that I have compared a lot of existing vehicle chassis numbers to the theoretical numbers given out by various sources for many types of vehicle, and very often they do not match, so that is the start.

The Stoewer company and its R12 vehicles just happens to be one of the vehicles I have managed to check out more than most, but the pattern of design and development for these Reichswehr Kubelwagens is similar across many manufacturers. 

There is very little written about or understood about the Kraftfahrrustungs (Reichswehr) Programm (Motorisation Programme), and I certainly do have all the information at the moment, but basically it is this, Instigated in the late 1926-7 by the Reichswehr to motorise the Army. Most German manufacturers (approx eleven) offered designs and most (approx 40 models) were accepted, hence the huge variety of Reichswehr Kubelwagens seen in photos.

But they all followed basic design ideas, but variations existed of course.;-
-use of existing civilian chassis but usually with larger wheels and lowered gearbox and differential ratios.
-bucket seats all round (Kubelsitzer)
-canvas doors
-simple folding canvas hood
-small screens fitted on the left and right of the windscreen
-usually fitted with the front mudguards of the civilian car design, that is they were long and streamlined
-bodywork ended behind the rear seats with separate boxes secured to the chassi immediately behind the rear of the bodywork.

However production was slow and in low numbers, and the same time the new German Army, the Wehrmacht, was expanding rapidly, and the next production programme, the 1935 Einheits Program which was designing purpose built military vehicles, was late in starting, was slow in development of designs, which were also costly and had many other problems. Consequently it was decided to issue new contracts to build more of the simpler Reichswehr design vehicles to give the ever expanding Wehrmacht some vehicles.

The new contract vehicles were now called Gruppe II and the older vehicles retrospectively called Gruppe I, and of course this is where there is a break in the chassis number sequences. Like Stoewer with its Gruppe I using 27xxx numbers and Gruppe II given 28xxx numbers. 
  
Not all the previous Reichswehr Kübelwagen models were upgraded, some older ones were dropped but other newer models were now included. 
Visibly the changes were typically;-
-bucket seats simplified, but still of the bucket design.
-canvas doors replaced with steel doors.
-doors now had sidescreen mounted on them.
-the simple folding canvas hood was redesigned to fit the side screens which gave better weatherproofing for the crew.
-the small screens fitted to the sides of the windscreen were deleted .
-tricycle front mudguards replaced the long civilian designs and had more clearance.
-most bodywork was extended to include a fully enclosed boot with a lift-up or drop-down door.
-some engine sizes  were increased.

However there are also Hybrid versions, where some the new Gruppe II Kubelwagens have some of the old characteristics and some of the new characteristics on them, not a problem, still a perfectly usable vehicle, its quite a common sight in photos.
 
Bert's Stoewer R12 photo is a full Gruppe II version, whereas as Max's photo is of a hybrid Stoewer R12 (Fg Nr 28 127), that has a Gruppe II front mudguard and chassis number, but all else is still Gruppe I,   Note : the Stoewer R12 always had the extended boot area bodywork, and their bodies were mainly supplied by Schlechte of Hamburg.

The problem is that not enough people get out from behind their desks and go and look at real vehicles, the man mentioned who was the Stoewer archivist, only knew the theory from paper records and was wrong on many many occasions, but he accepted corrections gracefully when given photographic proof.Unfortunately he was unable to correct all his previous outputs of information given to many different publishers and authors in previous years.

But the big problem is that there are obviously so few of these Reichswehr type Kubelwagens still in existance, which makes building up of a picture of production and changes very difficult, so if anybody has any chassis number information from existing vehicles, please show it.

cheers PAUL. 
Last edited by spannermann on 10 Jul 2020 20:50, edited 1 time in total.

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the Rocketman
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Re: ► Soft Skinned Vehicles

Post by the Rocketman » 10 Jul 2020 17:39

Paul,

Thanks for this intrestring lectuur.

With kind regards

Bert

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Re: ► Soft Skinned Vehicles

Post by SIS 5 » 10 Jul 2020 20:07

Hi Paul,

thanks a lot for this great and most informative lesson.I have learnt a lot. Thanks once mor.

Best regards

Bert

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Maxschnauzer
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Re: ► Soft Skinned Vehicles

Post by Maxschnauzer » 11 Jul 2020 23:10

Hi Paul,
That was no lecture, that was a Master Class! Thanks very much for sharing your vast knowledge.
Cheers,
Max

spannermann
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Re: ► Soft Skinned Vehicles

Post by spannermann » 12 Jul 2020 20:04

Hi,
Many thanks for your comments.

This is a huge subject and have only made a dent in it, there many other groups of Kubelwagens of similar look that are not part of the Reichswehr Programm either Gruppe I or II, but nevertheless were made later in the 1940's as Booster Vehicles for the Einheits and Schnell Programm, anything and everything could and often did have a Kubelwagen version, and of course captured vehicles also, particulary British 8 and 15Cwt trucks.

None of these other groups seemed to have any offical name for their group, Semi-Kubels is another group, basically cut down civilian cars, usually without doors and a crude canvas hood etc., However the titles Buete-Wagen and Umbau-Wagen do cover some of these vehicles.

The list is almost endless.

Attached are good examples of the well known Horch 830 Reichswehr, Kubel in Gruppe I, Gruppe II and Gruppe II Hybrid layouts.
Do not have a photo of the Hybrid, but the sketch was copied from a photo many years ago of a vehicle being used by Polish troops in Italy 1944.
Thanks to Henry Hoppe for his photo.

cheers PAUL
Horch 830 Gruppe I .jpg
Horch 830 Gruppe II .jpg
Horch 830 Gruppe II Hybrid .jpg
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Re: ► Soft Skinned Vehicles

Post by kerryboo » 12 Jul 2020 22:47

Hello Paul,
Firstly, many thanks for the excellent research, and for sharing it with us.
I have wondered about this kubel for some time, the configuration does not seem to conform to the normai 830 R types. Please, with your obvious deep knowledge, can you tell me what model it actually is, or if, indeed, it is even a Horch? It is probably a very straightforward and common type, but the only example of which I have a photo.
Once again, many thanks,
Kerry
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Re: ► Soft Skinned Vehicles

Post by spannermann » 13 Jul 2020 13:31

Hi Kerry,
Unfortunately my knowledge is not deep enough to cover everything on this very wide subject of Kubelwagens, but looking at your photo I am 95% certain is the slighter bigger Horch 830, called a BL.

Its certainly looks longer and lower, more streamlined, than the 830 R, the 830 BL has a wheelbase 150mm longer than the 830 R and also slightly smaller tyre size, these two points together tend to make a vehicle look longer and lower. The hub caps certainly have the Horch "H" pressed into them.

Apparently only about 50 were built, and this is the first I have seen, so thanks, but as said previuously just about all makes and models have a Kubel version of themselves, all built in these very small quantities. This Kubel may or may not be part of the Reichswehr Kubelwagen Programm, if it is, its a Gruppe II Hybrid, bits of Gruppe I and II, but is again its probably just another attempt to have more military Kubelwagens for the Wehrmacht from where ever they could get them. Although the attached photo says 1935-40 other sources say only 1939-40 (which is probably for the larger 3,8 lt engine model), the first date would include it in the Reichswehr Programm, whist the second date would have it afterwards as a separate build.

Its mudguards and running boards are very much those of the civilian car, but with the upgraded body of a Gruppe II type Kubel, doors that can carry sidescreens which gives better weather protection from the redesigned folding hood, large boot etc.,

photo of the donor car

Hope I am right :roll: what do you and others think ?
pictures_0001.jpg
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kerryboo
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Re: ► Soft Skinned Vehicles

Post by kerryboo » 13 Jul 2020 14:46

Hello again Paul,
Thank you for the quick response. I had shied away from the 830 BL because of the low production figures and relative lack of references.
I am happy to email you a clean full hi-res copy for your files if you would like one.
Once again, thank you,
Kerry.

spannermann
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Re: ► Soft Skinned Vehicles

Post by spannermann » 13 Jul 2020 15:03

Hi Kerry,
Yes, a hi-res photo would be much appreciated. I guess you are happy with the identification ?

Trouble is they all look so much alike 8O

There are many of these Kubelwagen types just made in quantities of 30's, 40's, 50's etc., at the moment I am trying to discover how many Opel 6, Super 6 and Admiral cars became Kubelwagens, there are photos of them but................?.

cheers PAUL

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Re: ► Soft Skinned Vehicles

Post by kerryboo » 13 Jul 2020 15:16

Paul,
I also have some photos of various Opel kubels, including a few of the Admiral types, a 2 Litre, PM me.
Kerry.

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Re: ► Soft Skinned Vehicles

Post by peeved » 13 Jul 2020 15:36

Re: Kerry's Kübel. Last time around 830 BL was also the final word: viewtopic.php?p=2056013#p2056013

Markus

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Re: ► Soft Skinned Vehicles

Post by kerryboo » 13 Jul 2020 18:30

Hi Markus,
Thank you, your memory is longer than mine, I did not remember this being part of a thread from way back. I now acknowledge that it had been identified, by the late, great, Bill Murray with help from Bert and others.
Photo safely indexed and put back in the archive, thank you all,
Kerry.

Jose85
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Re: ► Soft Skinned Vehicles

Post by Jose85 » 15 Jul 2020 09:06

Hi Paul,
Thanks for all informations.


two examples of Klockner Deutz A3000
Photos from eBay.de
klocknerdeutza3000russlandheuwinter.jpg
klocknerdeutz3000atarnmuster.jpg
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Jose85
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Re: ► Soft Skinned Vehicles

Post by Jose85 » 20 Jul 2020 16:31

Tempo G1200
tempog1200skoda.jpg
Phanomen Granit
phanomengranitsankrawl119133.jpg
Horch 8?
horch8typ750wl15000.jpg
Photos from eBay.de
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