► Soft Skinned Vehicles

A section dedicated to photo threads on panzer and other Axis vehicles.
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Maxschnauzer
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Re: ► Soft Skinned Vehicles

Post by Maxschnauzer » 18 Feb 2022 04:56

Hi Bert,
Thanks for your further thoughts. Believe my you are not the only one becoming confused. I've never seen those photos purported to be a Type 200 from 1932. In an effort to get my head around this I've put together a table of production years for the various civilian and Kübelwagen versions below. As you can see there are obvious discrepancies between the two authors, both of whom I admire greatly, so I don't know what to think at this point.
screenshot-forum.axishistory.com-2022.02.18-12_07_31.png


Oswald Civil from "Deutsche Autos 1920-1945" by Werner Oswald
Oswald Kübel from "Kraftfahrzeuge und Panzer der Reichswehr, Wehrmacht und Bundeswehr ab 1900" by Werner Oswald
Speilberger Kübel from "Fahrzeuge der Reichswehr - Radfahrzeuge 1920 - 1935" by Walter J. Spielberger
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Max

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Maxschnauzer
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Re: ► Soft Skinned Vehicles

Post by Maxschnauzer » 18 Feb 2022 05:29

Also sometimes I find photo comparisons can be helpful:
Here is the "MB 200" compared with a (flipped) factory photo of a 1935 Stuttgart 260 Kübel:
T-MB 200_B-1935 260.png
And below Top to Bottom: MB 200, 1936-37 Type 290/II, and Stuttgart 260
T- MB 200-_M-290 II_B-260.png
I haven't had time to draw any conclusions from all this except maybe the "MB 200" was a prototype which is why we haven't seen it "in the wild?" Hopefully you and others will find this of interest in any case.
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Max

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Maxschnauzer
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Re: ► Soft Skinned Vehicles

Post by Maxschnauzer » 19 Feb 2022 22:05

A Gebirgsjäger ski patrol with their Horch 830 R.
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Sturm78
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Re: ► Soft Skinned Vehicles

Post by Sturm78 » 21 Feb 2022 21:26

Hi all,

A Ford V8-51 truck, probably ex-civilian or captured

Image from Ebay
Sturm78
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Re: ► Soft Skinned Vehicles

Post by Sturm78 » 26 Feb 2022 15:56

Hi all,

An image from Ebay: a workshop truck with solid rubber wheels. Any idea ?

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panzerpatt
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Re: ► Soft Skinned Vehicles

Post by panzerpatt » 04 Mar 2022 18:18

Maxschnauzer wrote:
09 Dec 2021 21:49
Opel Olympia of the Grenadier Regiment 993, Croatia 1944
Hello,
This is not Gr-Rgt.993 but Kw.trsp.Abt z.b.V.993.
Regards,
Patrick
Panzerpatt (Ex: S.Pak)

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panzerpatt
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Re: ► Soft Skinned Vehicles

Post by panzerpatt » 04 Mar 2022 18:35

Hello all,
Can anyone identify this vehicle on a photo from my collection ?

Image

Thanks for Help

Patrick
Panzerpatt (Ex: S.Pak)

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Maxschnauzer
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Re: ► Soft Skinned Vehicles

Post by Maxschnauzer » 04 Mar 2022 22:22

Hi Patrick,
I think it is an Adler 10N. The five wheel bolts would indicate 1930 or later. If I'm correct it's a pretty rare pic.
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Max

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panzerpatt
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Re: ► Soft Skinned Vehicles

Post by panzerpatt » 05 Mar 2022 14:17

Maxschnauzer wrote:
04 Mar 2022 22:22
Hi Patrick,
I think it is an Adler 10N. The five wheel bolts would indicate 1930 or later. If I'm correct it's a pretty rare pic.
Hi Max,
Thanks for answer, but I am not convinced.
I’ve already searched a lot, and I thought about this Adler car.
There are three areas that do not match at all.
Image

I think we have to keep looking elsewhere. :roll:

patrick
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Maxschnauzer
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Re: ► Soft Skinned Vehicles

Post by Maxschnauzer » 05 Mar 2022 21:23

Hi Patrick,
Yes I noticed those discrepancies as well but was unable to uncover those type wheels on any kübel but Adler. It's an intriguing problem. :|
Cheers,
Max

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kfbr392
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Re: ► Soft Skinned Vehicles

Post by kfbr392 » 05 Mar 2022 21:34

SIS 5 wrote:
14 Feb 2022 10:38
The other interesting thing is the competition kit for a rallye. I was searching in the internet and could find the rallye "Autorennen rund um den Hermann", the correct name was Autorennen "Rund um das Hermannsdenkmal" (motor race around the monument of Hermann) in the Teutoburg Forest. Start and finish was in Detmold. It was a reliability drive, where also vehicles of the Reichswehr participated. So the Reichswehr tested in this way the suitability of vehicles. Here a pic of such a motor race with an Opel Kübelwagen (source: "Opel Militärfahrzeuge 1906 - 1945" yb Eckhart Bartels).
Thanks SIS 5!
Unfortunately that pic is not dated in Bartels excellent book. Any idea when the Reichswehr first trialed/bought Opel 1,2 Liter Kübel? 1934? Or earlier? The civilian Opel 1,2 Liter, and thus the chassis, was produced from 1931...
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Maxschnauzer
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Re: ► Soft Skinned Vehicles

Post by Maxschnauzer » 06 Mar 2022 21:38

Hello kfbr 392,
Unfortunately I can't cite the source, but I have the same trials photo that Bert posted with the caption entitled Kubelwagen on the chassis Opel 1,2 (1,8) Liter (1932-33). Apparently the 1,8 l motor was fitted to the 1,2 l chassis. I have just one other photo of a similar vehicle entitled Opel 1,8 litre kuebel
Opel 1,8 litre kuebel.JPG
Oswald makes no mention of either a 1,2 or 1,8 l Opel Kübel in "Kraftfahrzeuge und Panzer..." so I assumed it was never accepted by the RW. Does anyone have more on this? In Bert's Opel book perhaps?
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Max

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kfbr392
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Re: ► Soft Skinned Vehicles

Post by kfbr392 » 07 Mar 2022 10:10

Maxschnauzer wrote:
06 Mar 2022 21:38
Unfortunately I can't cite the source, but I have the same trials photo that Bert posted with the caption entitled Kubelwagen on the chassis Opel 1,2 (1,8) Liter (1932-33). Apparently the 1,8 l motor was fitted to the 1,2 l chassis. I have just one other photo of a similar vehicle entitled Opel 1,8 litre kuebelOpel 1,8 litre kuebel.JPG
Oswald makes no mention of either a 1,2 or 1,8 l Opel Kübel in "Kraftfahrzeuge und Panzer..." so I assumed it was never accepted by the RW. Does anyone have more on this? In Bert's Opel book perhaps?
Wow, that is interesting!
Note the larger rear tires. And is there something mounted on the hood? Or is that from the car behind the Opel?

I never heard of the 1,8l engine used on this small chassis. And neither does Eckhart Bartels mention it in his books "Waffen Arsenal 82 - Opel im Kriege" and "Opel Militärfahrzeuge 1906-1956"!
In his books, Bartels writes that a number of civilian Opel 1,2l and P4 vehicles were converted to Kübelwagen by various coach builders or small workshops. No mention of any engines swapped out.


I had a private email exchange with a knowledgeable expert last month and can share here what we wrote me about the Opel 1,2l/1,3l/P4 Kübelwagen:
"[...] [The picture of the Opel Reichswehr Kübelwagen labeled "279" driving through the mud] stammt zwar aus dem Opel Archiv, zeigt nach meiner Meinung aber eine individuelle Lösung. Das passierte in der Mehrzahl, da es den Bedarf nicht "zentral" gab. Auch als befreundete Nationen wie Ungarn oder Bulgarien entsprechende "Kleinserien" für Polizei und Soldateska benötigten, bestellten sie diese Umbauten beim Karosseriebauer ihrer Wahl. Hierzu lieferte Opel "nur" das Windlauf-Fahrgestell, überwiegend vom Lieferwagen zuerst mit 1,3 Liter später 1,1 Liter/Kadett-Motor.
Da die Kübelwagen (Ausnahme im Opel Versuchsbau) nicht in Rüsselsheim "vom Band liefen", sind auch keine Stückzahlen verfügbar.
Im Opel Buch "Opel im Sport 1934" bekommen diese Kübelwagen eine gute Note. Im militärischen Einsatz kann keine Bewertung zitiert werden. Bekannt ist nur, dass sich diese "preiswerten" Militärfahrzeuge für Schulungszwecke bewährten. Dabei übernahmen diese Kübelwagen-Varianten oft auch die Trägerfunktion für Panzerattrappen. [...]
Änderung an der Hinterachse bzw. Reifengröße waren ebenfalls Individuallösungen. Wie [...] erwähnt, dient es einer besseren Traktion, wenn größere Räder verwendet werden. Aber Seitens Opel gab es dazu keine Vorgaben. Und zum Thema Stabilität gehört, dass das Lieferwagen-Chassis Priorität hatte, nicht die Limousinen Variante.
Zum Getriebe war es seinerzeit üblich, dem Einsatzzweck (im Flachland oder in den Bergen) entsprechende Übersetzungen (auch beim Differential) einzubauen. Da dies ebenfalls in Werkstätten lange nach Verkauf ab Werk erfolgte, kann ich auch hier nicht auf Daten zurückgreifen.
[...]
[regarding Kübelwagen on P4 chassis:] Nicht P4 [car chassis] war das Ausgangsmodell sondern immer der Geschäftswagen [light delivery truck chassis]"

---email from Sun, 13 Feb 2022

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Maxschnauzer
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Re: ► Soft Skinned Vehicles

Post by Maxschnauzer » 09 Mar 2022 05:08

Hi kfbr392,
Thanks for sharing that conversation. In spite of my limited German I think I now have the story of the first pic and no indication that a 1,8 liter engine swap was involved.
As far as the second one that is still a mystery. I suppose since the 1,2 and 1,8 were released the same year, 1931, some engineer might have got the bright idea of a swap. But again no telling what is under the bonnet just from the pic. It's interesting nonetheless, especially with those big rear wheels. To me that could potentially be a logistics own goal, having to carry different spares. But we see the driver is NSKK so maybe this is some one-off prototype, or for a competition, or maybe just an umbau. In any case I'm removing the 1,8 liter reference from the captions until otherwise convinced.
Cheers,
Max

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kfbr392
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Re: ► Soft Skinned Vehicles

Post by kfbr392 » 10 Mar 2022 12:23

Thanks, Max.
But where did the 1,8l caption originally come from, then?

Here is a belated translation to EN:
"[...] [The picture of the Opel Reichswehr Kübelwagen labeled "279" driving through the mud] comes from the Opel archive, but in my opinion shows an individual solution. This happened in the majority, because the need did not exist "centrally" [from Reichswehr or Wehrmacht]. Even when friendly nations like Hungary or Bulgaria needed corresponding "small series" for police and militias, they ordered these conversions from the coachbuilder of their choice [and not from Opel Rüsselsheim]. For this purpose, Opel supplied "only" the cowling and chassis, mainly from the delivery van, first with 1.3 liter later 1.1 liter/Kadett engine.
Since the Kübelwagen (exception: Opel experimental constructions) did not "roll off the production line" in Rüsselsheim, no production figures are available.
In the Opel book "Opel im Sport 1934" these Kübelwagen get a good rating. In military use no evaluation can be quoted. It is only known that these "inexpensive" military vehicles proved themselves for training purposes. Also, these Kübelwagen variants often also took over the carrier function for tank dummies. [...]
Modification of the rear axle and tire size were also individual solutions. As [...] mentioned, it serves a better traction if larger wheels are used. But there were no specifications from Opel. And on the subject of stability, the [delivery] van chassis had priority, not the sedan variant [chassis].
Regarding the transmission, it was common at that time to install [different] gear ratios (also for the differential) that corresponded to the intended use (in the flatlands or in the mountains). Since this was also done in workshops long after sale from the factory, I cannot refer to data here either. [...]
[regarding Kübelwagen on P4 chassis:] Not P4 car [chassis] was the basis [of the Kübelwagen conversions] but always the light delivery van [chassis]."

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