Decision in Normandy. De Este

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Carl Schwamberger
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Decision in Normandy. De Este

#1

Post by Carl Schwamberger » 31 Aug 2022, 15:44

Bought a copy of De Estes analysis of the Normandy or Overlord campaign. Any take from the members or critics on the accuracy of De Estes facts ect.. I've spotted the usual minor gaffes present in all these books, but am wondering about his veracity in the critical items he discusses.

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Re: Decision in Normandy. De Este

#2

Post by Michael Kenny » 31 Aug 2022, 17:54

In 'The Manpower Dilema' chapter are D'Este says 100,000 British Infantry were hidden away in the UK and deliberately not used as replacements for Normandy losses. He clearly says that Mongomery's Infantry Shortage was a myth.


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Re: Decision in Normandy. De Este

#3

Post by Richard Anderson » 31 Aug 2022, 18:12

Michael Kenny wrote:
31 Aug 2022, 17:54
In 'The Manpower Dilema' chapter are D'Este says 100,000 British Infantry were hidden away in the UK and deliberately not used as replacements for Normandy losses. He clearly says that Mongomery's Infantry Shortage was a myth.
Which he concluded based upon information he received and hastily analyzed to get it into print. Unfortunately, he was too hasty and his analysis was simply wrong. The troops remaining in England were mostly limited duty personnel and the training establishment required to produce replacements so sending them to France would have effectively crippled the British Army.
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Re: Decision in Normandy. De Este

#4

Post by Sheldrake » 01 Sep 2022, 10:03

Carlo D'Este's book focuses on Allied decision making.

Much space is dedicated to matching Mongomery's claims before an event that he was going to do X, with the reality of Y and Montgomery's claims that he intended doing Y all along. So if you hate Montgomery, you will find much that pleases you. D'Este does credit Montgomery with his skill in managing the chaos of battle. Its the lying he picks up on.

One big limitation is that he almost completely ignores the Germans, who had a big say in the outcome of the Normandy campaign. At one point he observes that the German army had been reduced by the war to using horse drawn transport. It isnt clear that he understands the extent to whch the German army relied on animal transport throughout the war.

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Re: Decision in Normandy. De Este

#5

Post by Tom from Cornwall » 03 Sep 2022, 16:05

Carl Schwamberger wrote:
31 Aug 2022, 15:44
Bought a copy of De Estes analysis of the Normandy or Overlord campaign. Any take from the members or critics on the accuracy of De Estes facts ect.
It's worth noting that there is a whole chapter describing the challenges the British Army faced and a whole footnote admitting that the US Army also faced significant challenges! :roll:

If you search "Tom AND soapbox", I posted more somewhere on AHF a few years back.

Regards

Tom

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Re: Decision in Normandy. De Este

#6

Post by Felix C » 06 Sep 2022, 16:13

Sad to hear I enjoyed the read of this and his other book on WW2 campaigns, ETO, MTO. At the time DiN was a good counter to Keegan's Six Armies in Normandy.

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Re: Decision in Normandy. De Este

#7

Post by Carl Schwamberger » 06 Sep 2022, 16:33

So far the only thing that's caught my attention are the multiple paragraphs DeEste spent on the phase lines of the briefing maps.

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Re: Decision in Normandy. De Este

#8

Post by Carl Schwamberger » 12 Sep 2022, 19:40

Other than the Phase Line question DeEste does not delve much into the details of the evolution of the OVERLORD plans from December through March or April. I had hoped for a bit more insight into things like the intelligence available & understanding, if any, of the German strategy. Or the reaction to seeing the frantic fortification construction on previously lightly defended beaches. There is a small amount on the thinking related to the expansion from there to five beaches, but again not much of the details.

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Re: Decision in Normandy. De Este

#9

Post by Carl Schwamberger » 24 Sep 2022, 17:40

Surprise. DeEste refers to a airbourne operation aimed at the south approaches to Caen, in conjunction to the first effort to envelope Caen. Id previously seen only the vaguest remarks about this one, which did not convey the approximate date or other details. Not drawing any conclusions if this means anything, or if it does what it would tell me. Ploughing on into the text...

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Re: Decision in Normandy. De Este

#10

Post by Tom from Cornwall » 26 Sep 2022, 16:41

Carl Schwamberger wrote:
24 Sep 2022, 17:40
Surprise. DeEste refers to a airbourne operation aimed at the south approaches to Caen, in conjunction to the first effort to envelope Caen. Id previously seen only the vaguest remarks about this one, which did not convey the approximate date or other details. Not drawing any conclusions if this means anything, or if it does what it would tell me. Ploughing on into the text...
“Wild Oats”? I suspect. Not sure how far down the units of 1st Airborne Division this got briefed but was cancelled very quickly.

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Tom

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Re: Decision in Normandy. De Este

#11

Post by Carl Schwamberger » 26 Sep 2022, 21:26

First mention I see of this AB op is the map showing the attack of the 7th Armored Div/Villers Bocage battle. on the right side of the map there is a half oval, cut off by the map edge & labeled "Proposed drop zone 1st AB Div" This outline includes the villiages of Noyers & Evercy & falls short of Landes by a few hundred meters. Second mention I find is repeating a later quote of Dempsey that there was "no chance now of a snap operations with airborne troops either to seize Caen or deepen the bridgeheads XXX Corps frontIt is clear now that Caen can be taken only by a set piece assault and we do not have the men and ammunition for that at this time." This suggests Dempsy understood the possibility of a airborne op on the south side of Caen.

The next mention a few pages later is DeEste arguing that Monty would have been Justified in demanding the reinstatement of the AB op to close the trap on the Germans in Caen. I skimmed around for any other remarks, perhaps from Leigh Mallory or anyone else on this but no joy there.

I do recall description of one of the early iterations of the OVERLORD plan placed a AB op at this same general location on D Day. That was apparently set aside in favor of the Orne River objective NE of Caen.

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Re: Decision in Normandy. De Este

#12

Post by Tom from Cornwall » 28 Sep 2022, 20:52

Hi Carl,

There is some information about “Wild Oats” in Hamilton’s biography of Montgomery. I’ll check in his papers and see if there is anything more in there.

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Tom

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Re: Decision in Normandy. De Este

#13

Post by Carl Schwamberger » 28 Sep 2022, 21:16

Thanks. I don't see that bio in the local libraries online catalogs. Which does not mean its not there :roll:

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Re: Decision in Normandy. De Este

#14

Post by jbroshot » 29 Sep 2022, 05:58

Monty: Master of the Battlefield Monty's War Years 1942 - 1944, by Nigel Hamilton (1983) ISBN 0-07-025806-6
(second volume of Hamilton's three volume biography of Montgomery)

I bought all three volumes about thirty years ago for a substantial discount at a bookstore in a factory outlet mall

Also briefly discussed at the beginning of Chapter XII in the British Official History, which the first edition of which can be downloaded from Internet Archive

https://archive.org/details/victory-west-vol-1/mode/2up

Victory in the West Volume 1 The Battle of Normandy (History of the Second World War United Kingdom Military Series)
by Major L F Ellis

(a Google scan so the maps are either missing or not well scanned)

Both Hamilton and the official history say that Leigh Mallory was opposed to the plan which apparently killed it.

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Re: Decision in Normandy. De Este

#15

Post by Carl Schwamberger » 29 Sep 2022, 12:19

jbroshot wrote:
29 Sep 2022, 05:58
...

Both Hamilton and the official history say that Leigh Mallory was opposed to the plan which apparently killed it.
Thats been repeated elsewhere. I recall a general examination of Leigh-Mallory which included mention of his opposition to this and the other airborne ops in Normandy. De Estes narrative would suggest Bucknalls decision to pull the 7th Armored div back from its exposed position made the para drop untenable. I thought DeEste had a third reference to this AB op, but have not found it yet.

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