That is what you missing becouse you can't read Russian:)

Discussions on books and other reference material on the WW1, Inter-War or WW2 as well as the authors. Hosted by Andy H.
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David C. Clarke
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#31

Post by David C. Clarke » 22 Nov 2002, 02:18

It sees to me that he was trying to score some selling points with wider audience – which is not necessarily interested in history, but is some sexual “pulp fiction” -pity.
Hi Oleg, I agree with this statement. I don't rank Beevor's Berlin book as
good history, the subject has been covered better by other authors.
Best Regards, David :D

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Andy H
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#32

Post by Andy H » 23 Nov 2002, 22:27

Money well saved by not buying Berlin which helped towards the purchase of The Battle for L'vov July 1944 by Cass (From The Soviet General Staff Study-Oleg are you happy :lol: ), though Glantz is involved in the translation & editing.


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Toivo
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#33

Post by Toivo » 23 Nov 2002, 23:34

Oleg,
How could you possible have exact numbers and witnesses for most rapes during war? Maybe if he would show 1000, 5000, 15000 rapes calculated in Berlin after end of siege and had witnesses for even 10% of them you would believe him?
Every army prohibited rape or even sexual contact with civilians. But things still happened. The bigger army, more. Why? Every larger unit had probably some sick guy who would use chance and threaten with gun and rape. And how big were german and soviet armies? Pretty big. You really think all soviet soldiers and officers were heroes and followed also orders?
I don't think so. Either germans, allies, japs or soviets, all had fair amount of sickos, who either shot 10 POWs or raped someone.

I just see that you have very (naive to me) one-way vision, where everyone else except soviet writers, historians or soldiers have some mark. My apologizes if I'm wrong, but thats what I have read out from your posts.

Regards

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Oleg Grigoryev
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#34

Post by Oleg Grigoryev » 24 Nov 2002, 00:49

ErikHolm wrote:Oleg,
How could you possible have exact numbers and witnesses for most rapes during war? Maybe if he would show 1000, 5000, 15000 rapes calculated in Berlin after end of siege and had witnesses for even 10% of them you would believe him?
Every army prohibited rape or even sexual contact with civilians. But things still happened. The bigger army, more. Why? Every larger unit had probably some sick guy who would use chance and threaten with gun and rape. And how big were german and soviet armies? Pretty big. You really think all soviet soldiers and officers were heroes and followed also orders?
I don't think so. Either germans, allies, japs or soviets, all had fair amount of sickos, who either shot 10 POWs or raped someone.

I just see that you have very (naive to me) one-way vision, where everyone else except soviet writers, historians or soldiers have some mark. My apologizes if I'm wrong, but thats what I have read out from your posts.

Regards



well if you don't have more or less reliable numbers – why the hell speculate then?
You really think all soviet soldiers and officers were heroes and followed also orders?
where did I say that?

I just see that you have very (naive to me) one-way vision, where everyone else except soviet writers, historians or soldiers have some mark. My apologizes if I'm wrong, but thats what I have read out from your posts.
considering that you regard Suvorv as being prime-time historian you should not be the one who is talking about naiveté.

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Toivo
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#35

Post by Toivo » 24 Nov 2002, 08:50

Oleg,
You said in post before last post soviet soldiets were PROHIBITED to rape, and nothing else. Sounded to me like as if they were prohibited they didn't do so.
No exact number then don't calculate? Well, thats funny... If you can't prove 99% rapes (which is most secretive crime from both victims and rapers point of view) then let's forgett them. Guess that never happened.

I don't think Suvorov is prime-time historian, his facts have not been officially proved wrong. Many not naive professors and historians support his views, think they are either naive or in conspiracy?


I think it's no use to have personal crusade against your opinions, theres nothing one can change, but I STRONLY disagree you in this and in Suvorov-subjects.


Regards

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Oleg Grigoryev
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#36

Post by Oleg Grigoryev » 24 Nov 2002, 09:07

You said in post before last post soviet soldiets were PROHIBITED to rape, and nothing else. Sounded to me like as if they were prohibited they didn't do so.
I guess you heard the wrong sound.
No exact number then don't calculate? Well, thats funny... If you can't prove 99% rapes (which is most secretive crime from both victims and rapers point of view) then let's forgett them. Guess that never happened.
no, lets run around making up numbers. Is ist that difficult to write -rape occured excat number not known.
I don't think Suvorov is prime-time historian, his facts have not been officially proved wrong. Many not naive professors and historians support his views, think they are either naive or in conspiracy?
In your opinion Soviet defensive plans does not prove him wrong? - this one for instance http://www.thirdreichforum.com/phpBB2/v ... hp?t=10747 and by the way what do you mean by officially?

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Toivo
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#37

Post by Toivo » 24 Nov 2002, 16:18

Greetings Oleg,
Guess I heard wrong sound indeed (prohibited).

I didn't read whole book, he just speculated that things happened but didn't give any excact or summarizing numbers?

In Suvorov case I posted new reply in other thread, you'd want to read that.


But about Beevor and Berlin 1945. If you think he is trying to buy attention with empty talk, you might want to read book by Karl Fuhrmann ("Fall of Berlin" or such). He was in there with his wife (as sidenote, he wasn't fan of Nazis) and besides other problems they had there (food and so on), there were rumors about numerous rapes by soldiers of Red Army.
He got angry on those who talked such rumors, saying this is yet another lie of Goebbel's idiotic propaganda and that he is tired of this.
But soon he witnessed rape of old womand by two soldiers and even later, in to his home came armed soldiers of Red Army and raped his wife. Fuhrmann's wife told him not to look and not defend him as men who tried to defend their wives were killed.
This story is by someone who lived in Berlin as citizen and who suffered.

As note I'd say soldiers who looted, pillaged and raped/killed, were probably not from combat units (those two who raped old woman were from some suppor-tunit). Most acts of violance I have read about Allies or German troops were not made by combat units but some guys who came behind on their wagons or such.

Don't know what else to say, I'd just suggest to make some research on this and perhaps check Fuhrmann's book out. If you believe any of this that is.

Regards

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Toivo
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#38

Post by Toivo » 24 Nov 2002, 16:19

Oh and with "officially" I ment majority of historians and such folk.

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#39

Post by ISU-152 » 27 Dec 2002, 17:03

oleg wrote:ah Geraman memories... here is the summary form my point of view


1. Hitler always hindered our plans . Hitler was an idiot. German soldier rules forever !!!. Every German commander is like Frederic der Grosser but without bad habits.
2. Russians overwhelmed us with cannon fodder. Russians had a lot of it. Russian soldier is a child of nature – he eats whatever can’t run from him, he can sleep standing – as a horse, and he can infiltrate. We with our own eyes saw how entire Russian tank armies managed to infiltrate the frontline – and nothing gave it away – just yesterday it was simply an artillery barrage, aerial bombardment, Russian offensive , and oops – it is a Russian tank army in our rear.
3. SS sometimes overdid it. Meaning if we limited ourselves to common pillage, executions, rape and destruction which sometimes were cased by German soldier, from the abundance of Arian power, much more people would accept new order with pleasure.
4. Russian had t-34. That was not fair because we did not have anything like that.
5. Russian had many antitank guns. Every Russian had its own antitank gun – he was hiding it in pit holes, hollows, in the grass and under tree roots.
6. Russian had many Mongols and Turkmen. Mongols and Turkmen when supported by Commissars are horrible thing
7. Russians had commissars. Commissars are horrible thing . By definition. Most of the commissars were Jews. Even dirty Jews. We unthinkingly killed our own Jews. Himler was an idiot.
8. Russian did not fight fare they imitated surrender and then shot German soldiers in the back. Once the entire Russian tank crop surrendered and then shot in the back German heavy tank battalion.
9. Russians killed German soldiers. That was not fair, because it was German soldier who was supposed to kill Russians. All Russian are morons
10. .Allies betrayed us – meaning American and British.
Some additions if I may, Oleg :D
11. Russian soldiers are invulnerable to cold. It is too much for a tender German soldier to bear such low temperatures.
12. Russians see at night like cats - they attack us in the night when we get ready for bed. Morons give us some rest and sleep.
13. Russians have no regard for a human life, least their own. They attack in droves, step over the bodies of their dead compatriots and swarm our positions like ants.
14. Russians are terrific close quarters fighters. They were trained how to fight in the cities.
15. Russians raped every german woman when they entered Germany.
16. We tried to hang as few people as possible but they are all partisans.
17. Our soldiers when becoming prisoners of war are being eaten by this mongol horde.

:D

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#40

Post by Qvist » 03 Jan 2003, 17:39

Well, I agree that German memoir literature have been allowed to take the place of independent research to a much too great degree. As all memoirs, they are neccessarily biased and self-serving. And even with the best of intentions, the impressions of a participant is limited in nature, especially as regards what goes on on the other side. This is not improved by the fact that most of the more influential accounts were written without the benefit of much documentation. That being said, I do not neccessarily agree that everything found in German memoir literature is depreciative of their Soviet opponents.

The problem with Soviet memoirs are somewhat different in nature. The Soviet Union survived the war and had it's official truths to protect. I understand that they were generally not only published by the same publishing house, but that they were also to a considerable extent ghostwritten by the personnel of that publishing house. This does not exactly contribute to their credibility. I suppose it becomes a matter of taste and inclination which is the better (or rather, worse): The personal and caste bias of German memoirs, or the systematic bias of Soviet ones. Generally, I am somewhat fed up with all autobiographical accounts, and would prefer analysis over recollection any day.

What I would REALLY like to see is not so much availability of Soviet secondary material (into which category Glantz to a large extent falls) as translations of more primary documentation, or research based on this. If I inherited a few billion dollars from some unknown wealthy uncle and wanted to make some philantropic contribution to the state of research on WWII, I think the first thing I'd do would be to set up an institute in Moscow dedicated to assisting researchers everywhere, collating and translating Russian documentary sources and financing new research on the basis of it (and having it published in translation).

cheers

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#41

Post by ISU-152 » 03 Jan 2003, 17:58

Good intentions, Qvist. Unfortunately very few people in modern Russia load their brains with such issues as correct and thorough research on the subject of WWII. Most of papers are still classified. Why? There are still many people living or dead who benefit greatly from telling lies and speculating on the subject of history. :(
Until recently, I too genuinely believed that captain Lunin actually torpedoed "Tirpitz". It is due to this forum and its members that I have found out that his Hero of Soviet Union star is nothing more than a star awarded over a pack of lies.

Two thumbs up for your intentions.

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